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"Muggs" New user Bridgeport, CT 64 Posts |
That’s well and good from the planner and lecturers point of view. Your room and travel is paid for. You don't have to pay the registration and you’re making money selling stuff. All of that is at the expense of the attending customer.
It used to be that the registration was used to cover hiring the lecturers and venue and it included providing that lecture without additional cost. Now, true to the 'corporate world philosophy’ EVERYTHING is passed onto the consumer and nothing is ‘given’ back. You mentioned that doing a lecture is mainly for 3 things: • Recognition among peers. • Because you have something to sell. • Or you really love this industry and want to give back. Two of the three are for the lecturers benefit and the third is inaccurate your not ‘giving back’ your selling. You are either selling your reputation (looking for recognition); selling your product or services, (marketing) and you’re having someone pay you to do it rather than the other way around. It used to be that performers and lecturers vied, many times at their own expense for those positions to get that exposure and recognition and it didn’t cost the attendee ‘extra’ to see it. Now after footing the total expense for performers and lecturers to come and make money, you’re going to ask for tips? As I said, It’s a “corporate philosophy” that we sheep are constantly going along with. Remember the days when banks used to give you things and incentives for you to give them your money for them to play and invest with? Now they charge you for everything for the “privilege” to store your money there. |
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Bad to the Balloon Inner circle Clearwater Florida 2116 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-02-17 19:14, "Muggs" wrote: -------------------------------- You want to name an industry that has a trade show or convention where profit is not made? Ever done a trade show in NYC, Vegas, Dallas, Seattle? I am floored by the amount of money that changes hands. -------------------------------- Quote:
It used to be that the registration was used to cover hiring the lecturers and venue and it included providing that lecture without additional cost. Now, true to the 'corporate world philosophy’ EVERYTHING is passed onto the consumer and nothing is ‘given’ back. -------------------------------- Misguided I feel you are, in the past there used to be a lot of "back-room deals" to secure talent and instructors. Some people who know their value would hold up convention promoter, not that it doesn't still happen. Also conversely Some promoter were so shrewd in dealings well the talent got screwed. Today I feel many convention are more above boards than the ones in the past. This is due the incorporation of many conventions as a way to protect people's assets. IBM and SAM had a small battle some years ago about disclosure of the financial. I do believe that has been resolved. If magic conventions kept up with the cost of living, nobody could afford to go to one. Lucky many are hosted with many volunteers to help. -------------------------------- Quote:
You mentioned that doing a lecture is mainly for 3 things: -------------------------------- What reasons would you give for being a feature at a convention? Again you seem to have a problem with people benefiting from making a living. Your profile list con games as an interest to you, might this fascination skew your judgement? Giving back IS a benefit to the industry. If your only getting compensated for travel and lodging the time is a wash, so why would anyone do it otherwise? Exposure to whom? Other magicians or balloon artist wanting to steal your ideas to put in their show. My idea of giving back is guiding people through the rough waters I have already gone through. I bring to the table marketing, creativity, and a passion for the industry. By raising the bar for others, brings the industry to new heights. I think the Shanghai Fashion Show I was part of illustrates this well. It was Paul Belanger dream, but it was his artists that exceeded his expectations. Now it is all over the net. The trend as I see it is this: Many conventioneers have complained about paying for classes they don't take advantage of. Solution? pay only for the classes you like. Many like to hang out at a convention, and that is fine. In Balloons; some people never leave the jam room. At a magic convention many never leave the Bar. Or maybe we go to a format like this: http://www.nightclub.com/conventions/las......ons.html Look how much that costs and the liquor industry underwrites most of it!! -------------------------------- Quote:
Now after footing the total expense for performers and lecturers to come and make money, you’re going to ask for tips? As I said, It’s a “corporate philosophy” that we sheep are constantly going along with. -------------------------------- MAGIC LIVE and Balloon Camp are some of conventions I know that are almost a total package. Balloon Camp goes so far as setting up your room and pays for meal. As for being sheep ... why not put on your own convention if you have a better way of doing it? It is a lot of work for all involved, whether you are a lecturer, performer and especially as the promoter. Just ask Patty Sorrell how much work is involved. It amazes me how people think they got a deal on a $200 3 hour flight flight, yet grip about spending $125 for 4 day of organized fun and learning. As to me accepting tips... I felt it was totally on target for the class I was teaching. I was teaching them how to get the money. Also it was not mandatory at all. If they felt they got more that $5 worth of information they were welcome to tip the difference. I don't know why tipping is considered a dirty thing here at the Magic Café, but if more people did it this world would be a happier place, I hope you come to Twist & Shout I would like to talk to you more ... this medium sometimes comes off cold and harsh. Sorry if any of this seems flippant. It is just my opinion.
Mark Byrne
AKA Mark the Balloon Guy As seen on the TODAY SHOW www.balloonguy.net Creator of Bad to the Balloon DVD series Go to my store: http://tinyurl.com/Bad2theBalloon |
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"Muggs" New user Bridgeport, CT 64 Posts |
No offense was taken to anything your saying Mark. Like you said its your opinion. If I was in your position, I would probably agree with a lot of what your saying - not everything - but a lot. It's two people sharing their thoughts from two different perspectives of the given topic. Yours is from the businessman making the money at a convention and mine is from the point of view of the person that pays that money.
Speaking of your being a businessman, you have a great web site and are very clearly a Pro in the field. As such, I'm not against you being compensated for your work. I just feel that everything doesn't always have to be passed down to the attendee. The idea of paying only for the classes you want to take is a good one. But then you shouldn't need to pay a reg fee. A small percentage of that class fee could cover the room. The dealer room fee's could cover other expenses to the organizer. All involved are making their money and all expenses are not being passed to the attendee. $125 Reg fee may not seem like a lot to you but combined with $100 a night room, $200 travel, meals, etc., that's $1000 that the Pro isn't paying. In my case it would be X2 to bring my daughter, who is the actual balloon artist. It adds up...quickly. And I'm not making any money while I'm there. No offense intended back at ya' Mark... I also, was expressing how I felt when I saw others mentioning the expense. I would also love to sit and chat with you about this and other 'topics' sometime in the near future. However, I can't afford to attend Twist & Shout. I would be paying for two to attend, (daughter), and taking too much time off from work. This art form is not my full time job. Those factors and all the costs surrounding it make it cost prohibitive. Hope you do well there ... and have a lot of fun. |
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toomuchmagic Special user 534 Posts |
My question/point for sake of arguement (only) is this...
I have little interest in the "features" covered by the registration price. Why then should I pay for those? I am interested in the classes mostly. For that matter...you could jam/sit in the bar for free...anywhere...anytime. |
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Bad to the Balloon Inner circle Clearwater Florida 2116 Posts |
I am glad this is an understanding, so many times talking here turns into such a mess especially when people disagree. agreeing to disagree is fine by me. Couple of points of interest.
As a full-timer, unfortunately there is no vacation time accrued like most wager earners. When I leave town I either have to make money, Break even or spend money. this week I am spending money. I am banking on Twist & Shout for the contacts and education I am receiving. I am not lecturing this year. As a performer who has many standing gigs, I also have to give up or pay someone else to do the work I cannot do. that includes the tips, pay and potential shows given away. My travel and expenses will exceed $1,000 mark unfortunately you can multiply that by 3 for lost income for me. However from past conventions the knowledge and contacts netted 10X that amount .... so I think I am up by 7, does any of this make sense?? thanks for the compliments. Your too kind. It feels very precarious lately, performance life is in a transition period. It usually happens about every 5 years or so. Last big transition for me was post 911. Hard to make people laugh when a Nation is mourning. New challenges is economy, under-cutting talent, and world stage for magic and ballooning. Education is the key to releasing one's talent.
Mark Byrne
AKA Mark the Balloon Guy As seen on the TODAY SHOW www.balloonguy.net Creator of Bad to the Balloon DVD series Go to my store: http://tinyurl.com/Bad2theBalloon |
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Rob the Balloon Guy New user West Hartford, CT 96 Posts |
Where the registration fee goes (Twist & Shout specific):
1) To help pay for the rooms the convention will take place in. 2) The Saturday Night Banquet meal (I forget what Patty told me, but it's actually quite expensive) 3) Access to classrooms, jam room (you can't just show up, pay for a couple classes you want to take, and take advantage of the free balloons in the jam room) 4) The ability to enter the figure and stage competitions 5) The ability to vote for the figure competitions 6) Admission to the Pajama Jam, Twisted Film Festival, and Stage Competition As far as tipping goes, it's not required at all. Most instructors collect the money for their class at the start. Afterwards, it's not unusual for some students to tip them if they feel that their class was worth more than $5 (it is.) Some instructors even turn away tips. In 2004, I tried to tip Don Caldwell for his birthday party show class, and his wife--then girlfriend--Laura who was collecting the money actually refused the tip. She told me to buy him a Coke instead. Point is, tipping is nice, but not required. |
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toomuchmagic Special user 534 Posts |
Devil's advocate again here folks...
but if I buy joe blow's magic DVD and I think it is worth more than 30 bucks do I have to find him and send him a check? The way it is worded..."if you think it is worth more, then tip the difference"... I find that to lead to a " guilt trip" situation. This could make attendees feel obligated to tip which is an unfair position to be put in. Especially those of us who are going for broke to get there at all. Possibly a less foward and presumptuous manner of speech would be more appropriate. I.e. Tips are appreciated, but by all means, are not necessary. |
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"Muggs" New user Bridgeport, CT 64 Posts |
Lol..I wouldn't have put it exactly like that Toomuchmagic, but your point is made and I agree.
I do not feel I have the expertise to "compete" and shouldn't have to pay to "judge". You asking for non-biased opinions of the work, I hope. If someone wants to compete, they could pay a registration fee to do that and the prize money could be a percentage of the fees brought it, the rest going to cover the organisors expenses. The dealer rooms are there to make money and pay for that priveledge, covering that expense. The Jam room, I was understood to believe, had a corporate sponsor, who paid for the room and product,which marketed their product and would be a marketing / advertising expense for the corporation. If its not, why couldn't it be. Why couldn't someone come and go to the Jam for free. (If they wanted to) I will guarantee they will probably purchase DVD's, Supplies from the dealer rooms, and attend classes because they are't going to spend $100's just to get some free balloons. The room fees for the lecture's could be covered by the cost of the classes. The instructors make sales from their product. (and tips if you want to go there) So I think we are down to the Banquet. OK why not reduce the Reg fee to cover the banquet, if the attendee want to go to it, plus a nominal fee for entrance. Banquets are expensive but not $100 a head and could be optional. |
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toomuchmagic Special user 534 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-02-18 23:15, "Muggs" wrote: word. |
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Bad to the Balloon Inner circle Clearwater Florida 2116 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-02-18 21:48, toomuchmagic wrote: Actually have had that happen with people, they said my DVD's were worth more to them than what I charged. And I didn't even ask. As to the $5 lecture fee it is an honorarium, a token of the value. Trust me nobody is getting rich off of it. I am originally from New Jersey everyone gets tips in Jersey. (See my Blue Heaven with Steve Martin)
Mark Byrne
AKA Mark the Balloon Guy As seen on the TODAY SHOW www.balloonguy.net Creator of Bad to the Balloon DVD series Go to my store: http://tinyurl.com/Bad2theBalloon |
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"Muggs" New user Bridgeport, CT 64 Posts |
I think that if the "pay as you go" were going to be adopted I would have no problem paying more than $5 a class. It would depend on the length of the class and what was covered. If quality classes were not available I would not attend.
I also think that the size of the class and quality of the instructor would enable a supply and demand type effect to take place. The better the instructor and more he or she provides, the more in demand and the attendee would pay for the class. Tip are just that, a decision by the individual to give ... as such, they shouldn't be expected or solicited and ... as you are pointing out Mark ... don't have to be if you produce quality product. I don't mind tipping for good service ... my wife will attest that I'm generous for good service ... but I HATE feeling obligated, expected or pressured to do so. |
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