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jstone Inner circle Someday I'll have 1473 Posts |
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On 2008-02-19 11:58, Dannydoyle wrote: Danny, Matthew brings up a good point about the fact that written description are just as "edited." For example, in Paul Harris's book "Close up Fantasies" the effect "Close-Quarters" is described as "Two quarters held in the performer's hand are transformed into a single half dollar." The secret transfer and click pass and the way that you apparently put the coins into your hand are "edited" out. The reason it's edited out is so that you get a sense of what the spectator experiences. The same is true on DVD. You cannot misdirect a camera. On my first DVD that I released, I had quite a bit of criticism from people saying that it's obvious when I'm getting breaks and doing DLs. It's obvious because the camera is 2 feet away and locked onto my hands while I'm riffling up the back to get a break. However in performance, nobody knows I'm getting a break. They don't even know what a break is. It would make sense to cut or not show me getting a break (in this example) during a trailer. This allows the viewer to get a sense of the actual performance and audience's perspective. |
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Cyberqat Inner circle You can tell I work on the net from my 2209 Posts |
Okay. I'm an amateur magician. An ex-semi professional magician (street magic). And I have a film degree.
So that stuff is all out of the way. There's a lot here that I'd like to comment on. (1) Editing video to make you 'see it like the audience.' Can anyone who is an experienced magician honestly say that when they watch another magician perform they don't get a good sense of what the audience is experiencing? I knwo I do. That I know the method is irrelevant. What I'm watching for is the performance, how it "plays." I can do that without having to put a blindfold on. If you really want to show an audience reaction then the most honest way to do it is to shoot your demo with a live audience. A modified video doesn't show you what 'the audience sees'... at best it shows you the film-maker's fantasy of what the audience is likely to see. (2) Doing an honest video "gives it away." I remember seeing a 60 fps video of a three card monte worker played back. Yes the monte move was visible... for one frame. This doesn't seem to represent a big danger to me. Besides, I don't buy commercial illusions "for the method" by and large but because they are good professional *implementations* of the method and much better then I could build without a lot of work. I bought a styro-foam miracle ball when I was 14. I've known the Zombie method since then but I'm still about to buy a nice metallic one. (Soon as the RNTII comes out) If your illusion is worthless once I know the method, its not a very good illusion. I'm sorry, but that's my opinion. (3) TV magicians use camera tricks so why shouldn't magic sales do so? I personally despise TV magicians who use camera tricks. I feel they put the entire art in danger. What is the point of anyone watching a TV magician who uses camera tricks? A 3D animator can make far more impressive things happen on your TV screen or in the movie theater. (4) You have to edit because you cannot misdirect a camera. A few comments. First of all, while you cannot misdirect a camera you can misdirect a cameraman. Personally this is why I feel all magic demos should be done with a static camera that shoots the entire scene, but if you don't do that the camera man will naturally put things he or she feels are unimportant out of frame. Even if you do what I suggest and use a static camera you can still misdirect the person *watching* the movie. The high resolution part of the eye is only 2% of the retina. (It's called the fovea.) Everything outside of that tiny window is a blur. People do not and cannot watch an entire video screen at once. They shift that 2% around the screen depending on what catches their attention. Just as they do in real life. Misdirection is not about where they have their head pointed but about what their attention is focused upon. So, in case you haven't guessed, I do consider sales DVDs that use the medium to enhance the effect the same way I consider TV magicians that do so. And I consider both entirely unethical.
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
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matthew leatherbarrow Loyal user 240 Posts |
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If your illusion is worthless once I know the method, its not a very good illusion. I'm sorry, but that's my opinion. It's not quite that way around. When some see value in an idea they want to pay the creator. Others, regardless of the value, don't want to pay the creator. The value of a magic trick is both intangible and largely unprotected. Quote:
People do not and cannot watch an entire video screen at once. Perhaps not in one viewing. How many people re-watch magic demo's? I'll bet a fair few. Quote:
I feel all magic demos should be done with a static camera that shoots the entire scene. From what angle, with what lighting, and with the microphone placed where? For a trick that uses the pass, a high-angle would potentially hide the move. For trick that uses say the Million Dollar Switch, a mid-angle shot would be of benefit. Whenever you try and capture something you're making choices. Should you make choices that make the method transparent? Try and find an in-between... pro's can see the method, amateurs cannot? It's also worth considering. A written description will not reveal anything new about an effect however many times you read it. A video potentially will. Matt |
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Cyberqat Inner circle You can tell I work on the net from my 2209 Posts |
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On 2008-09-03 20:10, matthew leatherbarrow wrote: I don't know if this will make you feel better but my day job is in computer games where IP protection is a big issue. Interestingly enough, there is mounting evidence that copy protection does nothing for your bottom line financials. It turns out that most people, most of the time, *want* to think of themselves as honest. By and alrge when it comes to personal piracy, the only people who pirate software and don't eventually buy a legit copy if they like it are people who cannot afford to buy a legit copy period. So the pirated copies really have no negative impact on sales. The music industry has been discovering the same thing. Radiohead put an album out as a free download with a page to "pay us what you think it is worth." They report they made more on that album then on previous DRM locked releases. Quote:
But good misdirection doesn't only work once. Otherwise everyone would get an illusion the second time they saw a magician perform it. Good misdirection, I would argue, keeps on working time after time. [quote] Quote:
From what angle, with what lighting, and with the microphone placed where? For the angle the intended audiance would be at. If I see a video shot from an angle other then where I expect my audience to be, I assume it wont work at my angles. Ofcourse I also believe all magic print adds should specify all angle requirements. For a trick that uses the pass, a high-angle would potentially hide the move. Quote:
For trick that uses say the Million Dollar Switch, a mid-angle shot would be of benefit. Sure and I expect you will shoot from the most favorable angle. But as long as that's an angle I can put the audience at in my intended presentation, that's fine. Its even instructive. Quote:
Whenever you try and capture something you're making choices. I'd say you should make the choices that put the camera closest to what the intended audience would see. But you need to remember that the camera is not the end all. that the viewing audience should be free to focus where they are led and not forced to by the camera which is why I suggest a full head to toe shot from a fixed angle is the most realistic. All IMO ofcourse.
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
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Fake Josh New user Canada 32 Posts |
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On 2008-03-18 20:38, Tom Cutts wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCG3x__pxvE What is shown at 0:32 and 1:02 can not be achieved with Pen Thru Arm. |
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Bill Thompson Elite user Mississippi 422 Posts |
Is this really any different than the misleading line drawings and ad copy that used to appear in those old magic catalogs from back in the day?
"To let understanding stop at what cannot be understood is a high attainment.
Those who cannot do it will be destroyed on the lathe of heaven." - Chuang Tse |
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Fake Josh New user Canada 32 Posts |
Yes. Yes it is.
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R. Dunn Regular user 135 Posts |
Why are magic demo's edited?
They are mostly edited to hide some telling motion. A lot of people watch demo's and wont shell out for a trick if they can piece the workings of the effect together from the demo. A single moment can unravel the entire workings of an effect and once the secret is known, it's known. Certain tricks are just not camera friendly and rely on misdirection that the unblinking eyes of the camera is immune to. Does it mean it's a bad trick? of course not. How does one hide something like a deck switch on a video? It may fly over your head on the first viewing but on subsequent viewing it would show up like a sore thumb. I guess editing is fine so long as the effect on the demo is the same thing the spectator would experience, and the performer will be able to perform under the conditions shown. |
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Fake Josh New user Canada 32 Posts |
To a point I agree. What we are talking about is a little different though. People have had VCRs for years and magic was still performed on TV.
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Bill Thompson Elite user Mississippi 422 Posts |
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On 2008-09-18 11:54, Fake Josh wrote: Quite true, but a magic television show is still filmed from the best angles and the camera will film only what the spectator is supposed to be looking at, especially the old time shows that allowed no camera cuts. I grew up watching Dick William's Magicland in Memphis, a wonderful show. His camera man, while not a magician himself, knew where and how to position his shots so as not to expose the tricks. I learned this from him when we used him to film the close-up routines for our club's annual public show. Video ads for magic tricks must be careful especially, because they are marketed to magicians... who will be not only watching everything very closely but also be rewinding multiple times to look for the work. If the work is exposed there are those (crooks IMO) who would copy the effect. Back to the misleading line drawings and ad copy in the old magic catalogs... what is the difference? They are both basically hiding methods.
"To let understanding stop at what cannot be understood is a high attainment.
Those who cannot do it will be destroyed on the lathe of heaven." - Chuang Tse |
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Fake Josh New user Canada 32 Posts |
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On 2008-02-19 15:52, gsidhe wrote: This is from the first page of this thread. The part where it says "Perhaps editing out the part where you make the entire audience turn around for a moment so you can "secretly" pull something out of your jacket..." is especially the part to take notice of. There IS a big difference between not allowing magicians to figure out the method and some of the videos that show something that cannot be played out in practical, real life situations as shown in the "demo" video. Quote:
Back to the misleading line drawings and ad copy in the old magic catalogs... what is the difference? They are both basically hiding methods. It's probably because of my inexperience, but I've never seen any that have been as bad as some videos out there. |
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Frank A. Glastone New user 54 Posts |
Effects on Tv specials such as Copperfields' have been shot multiple times and then pieced together so vcr detectives can't figure it out.
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edh Inner circle 4698 Posts |
We are not talking about Copperfield. we are talking about common effects.
Magic is a vanishing art.
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wayno Veteran user Canada 323 Posts |
If an effect relies on a single sleight that can be figured out by watching the demo video, realistically, should you be releasing it as a product?
I am in a sense biting the hands that feed me but I honestly beleive there is way too much single-effect, over-priced garbage on the market right now. It is saturated. There is nothing fair about having to shell out $20 - $40 for a card trick, or other effect. Especially when you have a class-act like L&L or Kohler putting out high quality DVDs, or even better, some books. Where for the same price as those single effects, you are getting 5 - 10 really good effects, with usually at least 2 gems that you'll definately perform. There are those effects out there that really are worth it. But it is getting harder to sift through the garbage to find those guys putting products out that really are worth the investment. It gets even worse with deceptive marketing practices. |
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Rotten Special user 829 Posts |
I just googled Danny Doyle Hypnotist and found this right on the top.
I don't know if this is right or wrong. http://www.ripoffreport.com/Party-Planne......p7d4.htm |
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Father Photius Grammar Host El Paso, TX (Formerly Amarillo) 17161 Posts |
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On 2009-10-17 03:00, Rotten wrote: Probably posted by someone on the Café or other bulliten board sites where Danny posts who feels they got the short end of the stick in an argument with Danny. He has a tendency to get a bit passionate about his opinions and those of others, and some folks get real hacked at him. But, as far as being an entertainer, he is top knotch working pro, with tons of experience. I doubt any such thing happened and the anonymous nature of the posting leads to a lot of suspicion. My guess is that if a real company had that sort of problem with him they would have included the company name and the person postings name. They would not have hidden behind the anonymous banner like this one did. Smells of a fragging attempt by someone who felt Danny got the best of them in some net board argument.
"Now here's the man with the 25 cent hands, that two bit magician..."
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magicofCurtis Inner circle Los Angeles 2545 Posts |
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On 2008-03-20 10:10, hendoo wrote: First, I have not read all 7 pages of post... Just scanned through.... However, what APPEARS to be Dannys website is http://www.ddentertainmentllc.com and the direct link to his video and bio is: http://www.ddentertainmentllc.com/dannydoyle.html Also, I looked up the domain registration it is under the last name Doyle then lots of the other info is locked/private. Plus, in other post he has spoke about booking for resorts and this site is focused around resorts and under the performer section their he is... Also, I see many of his performers headshots do not seem to be studio quality... HMMM... So.... if this is the website in question, I would believe it is his! Again,,, just me popping in... I don't come on the Café that much anymore... Cheers :)
Curtis Lovell II
http://www.CurtisLovell.com http://www.MagicofCurtis.com www.facebook.com/curtislovellii Los Angeles, California - U.S.A. |
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rottenmagic New user 51 Posts |
I'm staying out of this one !
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Hey I just watch the audience most of the time. See if the effect works and whether it looks like something one can use in a real situation or if it's a one-time / reset problem.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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TheCigarPhysic New user 15 Posts |
Wow, what a thread!
First, It is not a new thing. I remember an advertisement on Tv when I was young where a kid opened a cardboard house and a small ghost floated out of it then preceded to float around the table and at one point the kids mother ran her hands around the ghost and was amazed. The usual babel about impressing your friends with your pet ghost, etc. After a month of saving my allowance I finally got one. Ill skip what was in the box and just say that I had the stuff laying around the house. There was no way it was going to fly around the table or do half the stuff they showed! Was it wrong, Yes. I can agree with showing it from the audiences view but don't make it out to be something it is not! It is like buying a book that says it will show you how to do card magic only to find that every trick makes a comment like "Use the XYZ force as show in XXX Magic book" I bought a book several years ago that was was supposed to be "10 stunning psychic card effects" and every one of them had things like that in the reveal. This problem is older than the DVD's and I am not sure that complaining about it helps. However, making sure people know who these people are and to avoid them is helpful for those of us that read and search before we buy.
Remember, when you are a psychic It is not what you say that matters, it is what you dont say and how you dont say it.
I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member. -- Groucho Marx |
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