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fridoliina89 Special user 503 Posts |
Hello everyone.
I have a few questions about TV rights on effects. I have been doing magic for almost 10 years now, and up until 2007, I had no idea about the whole online magic community, and magic stores, and the only magic books I had were Royal Road To Card Magic, and The Art Of Astonishment as my inspiration, so I created a lot of material on my own. So awhile ago, I got asked to do magic on a TV show, but I did not because a friend of mine said that other magicians had created, and were selling, the same effects that I was doing, and that they owned the TV rights, and I did not want to get in to some kind of problem. So my question is, can you really own a TV right for a effect? My lawyer said you probably could´t. Isn't that like copyrighting a dance move? I mean we magicians often try to create the same effects so the chance that we came up with the same methods is quit big. |
The Mac Inner circle 1982 Posts |
It would be best to email the creator of the said effect and ask for permission to use the trick. that's doing it the nice way.
Another way is to look at the instructions and see if the creator has reserved any rights such as t.v...if he hasn't then its fair game. |
cigma_guy New user Oregon, USA 12 Posts |
TV Rights... this is an interesting question... especially considering HOW MANY SCREENS you can watch "TV" (video) on these days.
I've not seen a more detailed discussion here (as of yet)... so I'd love to encourage some thought on this subject as well. Network TV - Cable Channels - DVD's (of your own performances) - YouTube "style" Video Sharing Sites... the outlets for VIDEO PERFORMANCES are growing by the day. I, too, have wondered the 5WH (who, what, when, why, where, how) of TV RIGHTS issues since I first heard them mentioned in the early 90's... just what does this mean for performers that wish to include routines that they have the rights to perform professionally... yet they themselves did not originate the effect / routine?? Thoughts, suggestions, more disucssion? Errin
Errin
--- See the world's FIRST 'virtual magic kit' for the iPhone and iPod touch -- www.TouchTricks.com |
Cain Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 1550 Posts |
I have read about how Blaine secures the "rights" to perform certain tricks on his TV specials. It's the right thing to do, but I'm not sure if it's necessary. I forget where I first read one of the warnings about how the creator reserves "broadcast rights," but my eyes nearly bugged out. How can you legally bar someone from performing your ACAAN? Absurd. I would love for a lawyer to weigh in.
This is altogether different than asking if it's ETHICAL to perform someone else's trick. If Criss Angel performs, say, a magician's signature piece, then the originator will be branded a "copycat" by future audiences. As far as the public is concerned, he would be doing a "Criss Angel trick." (Speaking of Angel, see the controversy with him and Steve Baker.)
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."
Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!" |
Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
Yes, performance rights are ownable and asignable. What your lawyer should have said is "How much money would you like to spend defending yourself from lawsuits?"
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
LOL
Hey Tom, the new software caught you too. When on TV, I've always tried to only use my own material. I also read the rights section on whatever I do consider making my own (I actually called up one creator last year to clarify permission for an effect of his. He actually reserved TV, Internet, and other media rights.) My policy on performing for the media is to secure permission, or at least notify the creator of an item that I am planning on using. It has been a while since I did a national spot, but one can never tell. Tony |
Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
Yup, but I got it back, Tony.
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cigma_guy New user Oregon, USA 12 Posts |
Thanks for the input so far.
I think the questions I chimmed in on focused on the concept of VIDEO rights... not just TV (as mentioned before.) When an effect is listed... either in a magic publication... or for a "pay once, perform for life" type arrangement that sooooo much of the magic today is offerend under... the need to clarify "where" you can perform it is now more important than ever. I'm specifically trying to get a discussion on the YouTube effect... meaning the ability for people to upload videos of themselves (with a WIDE variety of quality on this mind you)... online... ANYTIME they choose to. To me... this really opens this discussion wide up. I really liked Cain's comment about the "Criss Angel Trick" idea. An audience attributes material to the largest name and the first memorable performance of an effect. Yet the reality for 85% of magicians that perform on a regular basis for audiences (paid or unpaid) is we will NOT be a big enough name to compete with the big names of magic on a cultural level. MEANING... the average audience each of performs for will be able to state that they either ENJOYED our performance or HATED IT... but for the most part... they won't be able to tell people our names at a later date. Some may not agree with this... and that is fine... yet if we are honest with ourselves... its ok not to be the biggest names out there. If you visit http://www.imdb.com (the internet movie database) and look up a couple of your favorite movies... you'll see supporting actors whos faces you recognize... but you couldn't look them up by their name to save your life. But I digress... what I'm trying to show here... is the connection between building PERSONAL audiences based upon material you have permission to peform AND your unique personality connected with it. MORE AND MORE of us will want to use video to some degree in our art (either for direct business promotion or some other form of "hey check me out" type reasons)... and THAT is the question on the table. It seems that the basic belief is the content creator reserves the rights to everything EXCPET for a live performace. Should this be the norm... then a more standard approach to requesting (and being granted) rights to use the material we each work hard to make our own (ideally that is) for VIDEO (and all its implications as mentioned before) ... does that make sense? Errin PS -- thanks again for the discussion on this topic.
Errin
--- See the world's FIRST 'virtual magic kit' for the iPhone and iPod touch -- www.TouchTricks.com |
wallmott New user 39 Posts |
One thing iv been wondering about is what if you performed something that you created yourself then someone else comes up and says, "hey I created that that's in my book/dvd, you stole it"
It have happened to me many times that iv created my own material and then when I showed it for some other magicians they go, "oh yeah that's the effect by this and that person etc" Im sure it happened to anyone who creates their own magic and it would be impossible to read trough every magic book in the world to find out if someone has done it. |
tacrowl Inner circle Maryland 1633 Posts |
Just found this thread and it ties in with a topic I just started on the vent section:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/searc......=5585940 With a trick you purchase the outline of an effect even if you create your own routine. With a puppet, you purchase the prop and then create voice, character and script. Still, there are puppet makers who want to charge video usage rights. Where is the line actually drawn? When does a prop become more than a prop? |
edh Inner circle 4698 Posts |
If you create a design for a puppet isn't it yours? I mean you didn't walk into the puppet maker's shop and say I'll take that one.
Magic is a vanishing art.
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tacrowl Inner circle Maryland 1633 Posts |
The puppet in question is a customized version of a standard in the maker's product line - so it is a mixed creation. When charged and paying a premium for a customized piece, I would feel the piece should come with full usage rights. The maker knew I'd be using the piece professionally.
If I were a musician and played a Les Paul Gibson Guitar, I would not pay for the rights to use that guitar on a recording of my song. It is an instrument that allows me to create my own works - and I had purchased it for that purpose. If you purchased a, say - Vanishing Candle and taped your show for sale - would you expect to pay the maker of the candle for using it on video? Probably not, it is a prop - you bought it and chances are you customized it to your presentation. Same thing here - the puppet is a prop, nothing more. You can read more about this on that thread and please add comments there! We've already got Steve Axtell giving his views and I hope more will weigh in. |
edh Inner circle 4698 Posts |
Tom, I'm agreeing with you. I think you may have interpreted my post wrong.
Magic is a vanishing art.
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
I don't know about anybody else, but I miss the common sense approach of the old days (or maybe it's the non-mercenary approach). When you purchased a trick, i.e., a magic prop, it was yours to use. Period. When you purchased a book, you could use or build anything in it. Period. If you went to the library and borrowed a book, you could use anything in it or build anything in it. Period.
People built or published magic so others could use it, not so they (the creators) could get their fifteen minutes of fame. Very few pieces or books ever came with specific rights, and most of those were effects created by the top names for their own use and parceled out to a very small circle. If you copied an effect created by someone for his or her own use, it was considered stealing. We didn't spend so much time arguing who should get the credit or the nickel; we spent our time creating or practicing. I miss those days.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
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tacrowl Inner circle Maryland 1633 Posts |
Edh, - Sorry about that.
We are actually gaining some momentum on the other thread. I've had numerous e-mails from manufacturers who have read the forum. Some had never looked at the situation from our side. If policies change, there may be a ripple effect. (Or not...) |
Red Shadow Inner circle 1788 Posts |
Well for the record, I've released several DVDs and 3 books. All of which you are free to use any the tricks for whatever you want. I would be honored if you went on TV with my tricks.
I'm not a one-hit wonder either. I can produce new material whenever I want and am not afraid about giving stuff away. I guess that's where this issue comes from. Some people only ever release one good trick and want to bleed it for every penny is worth. I know first hand about inventing a trick and someone else releasing it elsewhere, unknowingly to me. My tie through neck method in 'the cool magician' was a great trick I devised, and then I saw it done in a rope trick video. My time trick done with impression patterns of a watch was released as stigmata by Wayne. I don't discredit any of these other magicians, they all came up with the trick themselves and perform it differently. They also released great DVDs at the same time as mine. Its just unfortunate that I had the idea at the same time as someone else, or unknowing of a published article elsewhere. There are hundreds of books and probably all my ideas are published by someone who died 100 years ago. But in regards to TV rights, I don't know who owns the rights. However what I do know, is that I will perform what I want, when I want, where I want. If someone tries to sue me, I will make it headline news and then I'll get more publicity and work afterwards which will give me everything I went on TV for in the first place. Publicity. Steve |
tacrowl Inner circle Maryland 1633 Posts |
In case you haven't checked out the other thread -
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/searc......=5585940 I thought I'd provide an update. We had a lawyer join us and provide some very generic, but eye opening information on the subject. The puppet maker also ended up re-writing company policy to be performer friendly - and this sets a simple to understand new standard for the industry. If the subject of TV rights interests you, I highly recommend you read the information there. |
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