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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Jeff-
I suggest you reread my post. But then, again, what do I know? |
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numberjay Regular user 122 Posts |
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Unfortunately, I think the wonderful Mr. Bob Cassidy is suffering from the same ego-mania "mentalism is more believable" thing that I've been pointing out. Jeff, how can you talk like that? Opinions are opinions, but why be disrespectful? I don't think you got what Mr.Cassidy was talking about, anyway. And I may be wrong, but I don't think you'll ever achieve in Mentalism a tiny fraction of what Mr.Cassidy has. Bob Cassidy is synonym with Mentalism. I feel privileged when someone of his caliber takes his time to share his thoughts to us who are perfect nobodies. You talking like that can only make you appear much less smart than I hope you are. Numberjay |
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pearljamjeff Inner circle Ann Arbor 1247 Posts |
I know Bob's status, and I know that I will never achieve the same. No need to point that out. I totally agree with his second post! It was not my intent to be disrespectful, but my frustration with this notion got the best of me. I certainly apologize. I think Mr. Cassidy is incredible and has provided us all with many unique effects and wonderful items to ponder. I re-read his first post as he asked me to and now see what he was saying, it's not the props or lack of... it's the presentation.
I was wrong on this one (Take note... because it doesn't happen often ). Mr. Cassidy, sorry for posting in haste and not taking the time to fully absorb what you said first. Respectfully, Jeff
Jeff Travilla - I own an advertising agency to help finance my magic addiction.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
No problem, Jeff. I kinda thought that's what happened.
Bob |
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pearljamjeff Inner circle Ann Arbor 1247 Posts |
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On 2009-03-17 21:16, mastermindreader wrote: Did you read my mind, or was it just a trick? Sorry... I couldn't help it.
Jeff Travilla - I own an advertising agency to help finance my magic addiction.
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zifferinolpm Regular user 112 Posts |
Honestly, I think if you don't know the difference between "Mental Magic" and "Mentalism" you should really keep your thought's <pun intended> to yourself!
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pearljamjeff Inner circle Ann Arbor 1247 Posts |
I feel opinions on this difference vary, as evident by this thread. My original point at the beginning was simply that you can't separate mentalism vs. "mental magic" on the basis of props alone. Mentalists sometimes seem so fixated on "not being magicians" when they clarify this distinction. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Jeff Travilla - I own an advertising agency to help finance my magic addiction.
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Dick Christian Inner circle Northern Virginia (Metro DC) 2619 Posts |
After reading his posts and having known him for close to 20 years, I believe that the Rev. Dr. Bob and I are in the same camp.
P.S. Bob, I've been trying to reach you so if you see this, please PM me at gr8magik@aol.com Thanks
Dick Christian
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kissdadookie Inner circle 4275 Posts |
I like to hear myself talk so here's my two cents (plus Bob's two, this makes a total of four cents folks, someone please donate one more cent and we can go buy a piece of Bazooka gum, I'll take the comic, you guys can share the gum):
I feel that there is a clear distinction between mental magic and menalism. There's also a clear distinction between props in mental magic while there being apparently no props in mentalism. In essence, even when a mentalist uses a prop, the illusion to your audience is that it is propless. You can use a drawing/chart board, billets, pencils, pens, your wallet, etc. but in the end if anything, your audience would not associate these things as props. A pencil is a pencil, a piece of paper is a piece of paper, a clipboard is a clipboard, how can any of these be perceived by your audience as being a prop? Thoughtreader's initial comment about Mental Epic being more in lines of a prop for mental magic is quite valid. Have you seen the Mental Epic board? That does not look like a normal every day object, it looks very much like a prop. A mentalist may indeed use props but notice the kinds of props they use, they are basically every day objects that are easily identifiable and to the audience there is nothing out of the ordinary thus to the audience, the mentalist is indeed propless. One need not explain why there is a chart board up on stage with them because just like how a student does not question a chalkboard the audience will not question a chartboard/pad. It is a implied that it is used as a visual demonstration to the audience of what is going on just like how a teacher is writing formulas on a board during math class. Clearly there's a distinction between props and propless in the eyes of the audience (the performer of course, knows better). Even when a mentalist uses a prop such as a deck of cards, notice how a good mentalist never really highlight the cards all that much and notice how they use the cards within the routine (usually not a card trick, one great example is a memory routine). Again, the use of the deck of cards is really in the context of using them as a visual demonstration of a concept being demonstrated. I've seen quite a number of mental magic performed by folks who really believe that they are performing mentalism but in the end, it feels like a trick. One of the main things that can be observed in these situations is the feel of the routine, they emphasize some points which makes the routine feel more like a trick than a demonstration of a mental feat (such as stating things such as "notice how I can not switch these... watch me close, with my empty hands... etc."). Often times when cards are involved (cards are the easiest to single out as they are one of the worst culprits in use in mental magic that performers believe is mentalism) these performers will emphasize that the card is signed by a spec, etc. There's my two cents, now who has that last penny so we can get this show on the road and by a piece of Bazooka? |
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Omega Man New user 41 Posts |
If you are working off an ideal, a premise for everything you do, then distinctions are what you make them and ultimately are irrelevant.
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kissdadookie Inner circle 4275 Posts |
That sounds profound, please elaborate on that Omega.
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MagicbyCarlo Inner circle has squandered his time making 1062 Posts |
Bob, not to challenge your premise (I have a great deal of respect for your work and experience), but I have seen both reactions, both types were entertained, but they viewed the source of power differently. I think that the "reality" factor is more in the mind set of the person watching. Some are taken with the "reality" and some perceive a "trick" to what you do. I have even spoken with laymen that understand billet work and center tears. While both groups might be entertained they view the source of the entertainment differently. Some depends on the sophistication of the audience and their world view. A hardcore skeptic will never come up and worship at the alter of your ability, I don't care who you are. On the other-hand I have been complimented by skeptics on my ability to "read" people and psychologically guide them, when something totally different was going on.
Carlo DeBlasio
<BR>Entertainment specialist <BR>and all around fun guy! |
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kissdadookie Inner circle 4275 Posts |
Carlo, there's still a big differential between mental magic and mentalism. I've seen John Stetson perform twice in a pretty much packed house and he literally gets loud gasps and "Oh my god!" (which he has a very funny line for by the way) reactions without him ever having to cue the audience for these reactions. Heck, many times he's received these very reactions without even getting to the end of the trick yet. The effect that gets the audience going in this direction is his magic square routine. The reasoning behind this is that it really seems truly believable. It is not outside of the realm of possibility. I have yet seen anybody get this kind of reaction from magic or mental magic (a "no way!" here and a "that's impossible!" there but never in unison like this). I've also been fortunate enough to watch Bob perform a shorter version of his act here in NYC about a year or so ago and let me tell you, that was a huge standing ovation. There's a big difference to the feel of the two realms, mental magic and mentalism.
As to your comment about skeptics Carlo, believe it or not, the best things to perform for skeptics are mentalism effects if you can direct the conversation to subjects such as influence, free will, etc. They are skeptical about magic tricks but they are some of the easiest targets for mentalism and hypnosis because if you can give them the impression that you are more than willing to "share" with them concepts of psychology and how what you're going to do is not magic but more about influence, they absolutely eat that right up. When you got complimented on being able to "read" people and psychologically guide them, and these compliments were coming from skeptics, it very well could have been that you were performing something that was actually plausible instead of regular magic effects or mental magic effects which to be honest, really feel like tricks. The last thing a skeptic wants to be is to be fooled thus if they smell that something is a trick, they'll try to dissect it, if they feel that it's a plausible demonstration of something, they will welcome it with open arms. Lastly, it is in the mindset of your audience as to what they believe but you have to remember that we are playing for the majority, not the niches. Our job is the give the majority for however long we spend with them, that their understanding of how the world works can be challenged and the impossible could quite possibly be possible. Of course magic can be like this too but it's a lot harder to create this kind of atmosphere due to the fact that most people will readily discount magic as being trickery while they will keep a open mind (no matter how small of a crack) to the mindreading, hypnosis, etc. There's a good reason why there's so many psychics and 1-900-psychic numbers out there, it's because people WANT to believe in this sort of stuff. This is also why we should tread responsibly and let our audiences understand that what we are doing is entertainment (I don't believe in disclaimers as I feel it gives the performer a harder time to get the momentum to the top since they start off diffusing themselves before anything ever happens). |
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MagicbyCarlo Inner circle has squandered his time making 1062 Posts |
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On 2009-03-23 21:09, kissdadookie wrote: All granted. Skeptics are generally a small niche. Tonight in a casual atmosphere a couple of demonstrations convinced three people that psychic connection is possible. Honestly though, my goal is to do one or all of three things: Entertain,amaze, and have people consider potential. Tonight all three were accomplished.
Carlo DeBlasio
<BR>Entertainment specialist <BR>and all around fun guy! |
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kissdadookie Inner circle 4275 Posts |
Yup, bottom line no matter what direction you go the goal is to entertain, amaze, and change people's perspectives on life Totally agreed Carlo.
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Omega Man New user 41 Posts |
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On 2009-03-24 10:25, kissdadookie wrote: Thus: if your ideal is strong enough, distinctions are ultimately irrelevant. |
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rickreation Veteran user 343 Posts |
[quote]On 2009-03-17 17:14, mastermindreader wrote:
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The Difference between Mentalism and Mental Magic A brief question for Mr. Cassidy - Would you say that Mental Magic can fall under the category of "pure magic? And if yes, if mental magic is performed to a "pure magic" caliber, do you think that it would be acceptable for a mentalist to include "pure mental magic" effects in the same act without compromising the artistic integrity of the mentalist? (Of course it is all subjective, but where would you stand on this?) |
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rickreation Veteran user 343 Posts |
[quote]On 2009-03-17 17:14, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
The Difference between Mentalism and Mental Magic A brief question for Mr. Cassidy - Would you say that Mental Magic can fall under the category of "pure magic? And if yes, if mental magic is performed to a "pure magic" caliber, do you think that it would be acceptable for a mentalist to include "pure mental magic" effects in the same act without compromising the artistic integrity of the mentalist? (Of course it is all subjective, but where would you stand on this?) |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
The thing of it is this - when you raise "mental magic" to the level of "pure magic," it isn't "mental magic" anymore. I can't really conceive of something that could be called "pure mental magic."
That being said, "pure magic" can be incorporated into a mentalism performance without compromising anything. It's just that it takes rare performance skills to pull it off successfully. Bob |
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Oscar999 Elite user 401 Posts |
... back to the idea of starting out ... learn to tell stories. The people I respect and listen to are excellent story tellers. They can take the smallest "effect" and transform it into a magical experience with the power of their presentation.
Oscar |
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