I have been doing “fundraising” type shows for many years. Mostly I work for agents that sell the Lions, Optimist, Kiwanis type shows.

The last couple of years this agent has been telling me things have been slow as far as the sales of these shows. Consequently he has asked me to reduce my fee. To this point I have cut my price some but now he is asking me to lower them again.?? Now what he is saying might be true, but remember, he is an agent/promoter.

I have been raising my other show prices and getting them, plus with the fact of fuel and everything else going up, why should these be any different?

My question is to others that do this type of work. Are you getting the same requests from your agents? You can PM me if you don’t wish to post openly.

Thanks
Kent

We'll chat directly Kent...

I am at your service and in HIS Service,
Dean
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Hi Kent,

I not only perform these types of shows, but I am also fortunate enough to book them and be stage manager for a couple of promoters that put them together.

I have seen a definite readjustment period take place over the last few years. The fees for all of our performers, for example, had to be lowered to reflect this. Some, as much as 25%.

Currently however, there seems to be some confusion in the pricing. The companies that I book (and perform) for, have started to move the fee paid back to where they were 4 or 5 years ago. They are also trying (so far rather successfully) to expand to more communities. All in all, they are appearing to do well for the charities they are raising money for and have a well deserved solid reputation in the industry.

But, the companies that I only perform for and am booked by them directly, have steadily been lowering prices. Two weeks ago, we performed for one of these for a fee about 20% lower than what we were getting from him 2 years ago. He gave the same explanation of poor attendance or slow sales.

Still other companies that I have done this type of work for in the past, would not only pay a performer a lower fee, they were at times operating on the wrong side of the law. Some would not pay GST, a tax in Canada that must be collected by any business that makes over a certain gross amount. Some would illegally overbook a venue through donations by corporations and not distribute the tickets. And so on. I am happy to say that I am not aware of any of these types of promoters operating in my area today.

A number of factors have been at play with the fees. Some of them at odds with each other.

One, there was a slump in sales and getting people to donate or buy tickets did go through a downturn. You could see it by the number of empty seats in the audience. One of the adjustments that has been made in these markets was to lessen the number of shows from 3 to 2 or 2 to 1 that are performed for that date.

Why less sales? Lots of reasons and possibly everyone different for different people. Perhaps tired of going to a variety/magic show. Perhaps a downturn in the economy. Perhaps higher fuel costs. Perhaps tired of donating. Perhaps...

At odds with the downturn, has been the performers asking for higher wages. They are, as you mentioned, facing higher costs in fuel, accomodations, etc... As you have also correctly pointed out, in other shows, the performers have been successfully able to raise their fees in many instances. So, they naturally ask for more from the fundraiser shows.

Something to keep in mind though, is the promoter is dealing with a long term client (charity). They have to be able to show a bottom line to the charity over the course of their business relationship in order to continue working for that charity. The charity can of course expect some differences show to show, in revenues generated. But, if the trend is one of ever decreasing returns, then the charity and or the promoter, may decide to not run the shows in the future. This means a lost source of revenue for performers altogether.

So with a multitude of reasons why sales slump (it is not, "If you build it they will come." in the real world ), performers who see rates climb in one area and plateau or fall in another, charities which hope to see a certain amount generated and a promoter that is trying to balance all of this, we have our current situation.

Like any other type of industry, we are subject to all the variables that make it work. Unfortunately, one of them is the fact that over time we cannot be guaranteed that our income will increase and in fact, in some areas may even decrease.

Also, the longer we are performers, the more we consider we should be able to charge (give ourselves a raise as it were). This is a perfectly fine reasoning and I am in no way suggesting that we shouldn't expect more as we develop and grow as performers. But, keep in mind, that just because we wish to make more, it doesn't mean that the person using your services feels they should pay more. They may simply seek out other performers at what they see as charging a more reasonable rate. And, from experience, I can tell you that performers charging a lower rate are not necessarily a poorer act than performers charging a higher rate.

So, as performers, maybe we have to ask ourselves, what is doing this show worth to me and not how much do I think I am worth to do this show?

Good luck,

Rob

I've had a lot of friends tell me that they are lowering their prices just to stay booked..

But just last month I raised my prices 30% and raised my marketing efforts 30% and am now booking almost double the shows at the higher rate...

I also spend a lot of time with business mentors and they are the ones who suggested raising my rates...

the concept is that with raising my rate I now have more of a marketing budget and am able to get more clients (and it works)

as far as a agent goes...
I NEVER let them book me at a rate lower than what I charge...

the mindset is why would a client ever hire me if they can get me a half the price through someone else...
Now if they charge my rate and take a cut before paying me that's fine.

anyway just my thoughts..

Maybe you were and are, charging too little to begin with?

Fees, are always a hard thing to come up with. Location has a big part of determining what one can charge. I know where I live $150 to $200 for a birthday party is about all most people will pay. In other areas I have heard that the birthday price is more. I don't do many of these any more but, hey, this is my living and if I have a date open and can book a show I will.

My stage show includes, when needed, lights, curtains and sound system. Am I charging too little? I would say yes. Can, should I get more? (or at least what I normally charge?) That is why I am posting here. Trying to get a feel for what others are going through.

(Before someone jumps on the "it depends on your experience and how good etc. you are" determines what one can charge..." please don't. I know that this is true. This has nothing to do with what I am trying to find out in this situation. As the old saying goes, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.)


Discussing fees on this site is not normally done I know so PM me if you wish not to disclose some things publicly.

Who knows there might be others out here, who make a living doing this, that have the same questions.

Thanks
Kent

Hi Kent,

The "too little" was directed at MikeClay's post, not yours.

I have no idea what you charge, but addressed your original post with mine of Sept 10. In that post I specifically addressed the issue that you raised about the "fundraising shows."

These shows being ones that have been put together by promoters/agents and they hire the talent (you) and not fundraisers that you put together yourself and sell to clients.

The majority of performers never participate in these types of shows. The shows are not publicized, promoted or in any other way advertised. Often, because they are direct marketed, they do not even know they exist. I perform regularly in cities that friends and associates live in and they did not know of a performance occuring unless I notify them.

Typically, the venue is a soft seated theatre with a capacity of 750 to 1000 seats. If the community does not have such a venue, then a smaller theatre or high school theatre/gym with stage, might be used.

The shows often contain 2 to 3 acts along with an emcee, although at times, one performer may do the entire 90 to 120 minute show.

As I mentioned already, I am very familiar with these types of shows and have at least 20 years experience of performing in them and booking the talent for them. I have five of them this month.

Rob

No offence taken Rob.

So if you promote these fundraising - direct marketet type shows, are you finding the need to pay the performers, along with other expenses, less than last year?

Kent

Hi Kent,

It tried to explain that in my original post of the thread. I guess it wasn't reading as clear as I intended

Short answer:

I perform for at least 4 of these fundraising promoters currently.

Two of these promoters, I also book most of the talent for their shows.

The two I book for, fees dropped substaintially 3 to 4 years ago. However, the fees are now rebounding (going up) and are close to what they were before the reduction (now being paid about the same as 5 years ago).

The other two promoters have steadily been cutting fees over the past couple of years. Fees paid today by them are at least 20% lower than they were paying 3 years ago.

Hope that's clearer

Rob

Agents and promoters are hardly the same thing.

Promoters build and sell their own product. It is totally a buying and selling situation. The control is maintained by the promoter. The entertainer is "bought goods".

An agent represents the performer. The performer maintains control.

No doubt there are some economic pressures to accept. But never forget that an agent is only as good as his or her contacts. Some simply don't grow!

NEVER turn your contacts over to an agent. (Doing this for a personal manager is another case.)

Exclusive agency is usually a step before leaving the industry. Only pay for gigs they contract and consider having a personal manager instead.

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander

As usual Bob, you are correct.

However, in some situations, promoters will engage agents to find them the talent for the event. That is the situation here.


On another related note, signing any contract is a serious thing. I particularly hate the ones that state something to the effect that if you sign this contract to work this venue (or for this client) through this agent, then you MAY NEVER AGAIN work this venue (or client) unless through this agent. I have NEVER used this clause when booking talent.

Rob

Having owned an agency, I can appreciate an agent protecting his talent buyer. However, at law the only way an agent can serve two (and conflicting interest) masters is with permission from both. (In the USA real estate is frequently done this way. However, real estate sales don't anticipate a recurring event ever including all parties and the same piece of real estate again. Talent buyers often know they will have recurring events.)

The rule is that the agent either works for the talent buyer or the talent but not both. We tend to think of an agent for the talent buyer as also being a promoter. He certainly should not represent the talent.

I have always honored the agents' find and even on occasion surprised them by paying an unearned commission for a subsequent contract where the talent buyer contacted me directly. It has simply been good business. (Also called "enlightened self interest".) I feel like I am still using their contact for employment.

Some agents are also simply good friends who will tell you how to get hooked up with a particular talent buyer. However, always remember that an agent's inventory of available acts out number the contracts sought. The money is negotiable. A good agent is more eager to book you at a bonus over prior contracts than he is to cut your fees. You pay his commission based upon the dollar value of completed contracts.

After all these years, lodging is frankly about all I've had to negotiate. I am usually booked up 9 months to a year out. For me, the greatest change has been the costs of operation. Revenues have adjusted upwards rather than downwards. Doomsday thinking can become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Prospecting for new or different talent buyers is the better investment. Otherwise, I would still be counting on the upper end country clubs and dinner theaters I could in the 70s and 80s. They are gone! So are some old agents!

You can’t drive a Studebaker forever! But business is good.

Price cutting is normally the result of producing the wrong good for the market or allowing competition to make the consumer believe your product is overpriced.

I have no argument with those who sell for less. They know what their product is worth.

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander

PS --- Yes, I'll help old customers too. But I will also replace them.

Six Easy Steps to Pricing Your Act:

A) Come up with a realistic gross figure of what you need to live on per-year.

B) Come up with a realistic number of shows you want or can do per-year.

C) Divide the number of yearly shows into your needed yearly dollars.

D) This is what you need to charge per-gig to make your yearly gross living wage.

E) Be absolutely 100% certain that your skill and experience level is worth this amount.

F) Tell agents, promoters, and clients this is what you charge and stick with that figure.

Next year, make needed adjustments, and repeat A – F.