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Clinton W. Gray New user 100 Posts |
Done Ray, thanks for your input.
Clinton Posted: Oct 19, 2008 6:26pm On a personal level I agree that it is important to "promote at all times harmony amongst those interested in magic and its allied arts..." However, my company has no interest in such things. It's mandate is only to ensure that we become the top booking agency of magicians in the Vancouver area, and that event planners only hire entertainers within our roster. That's why the Vancouver Magician site exists. Posted: Oct 21, 2008 12:53pm After more than a few nasty emails, I have decided to take down the VancouverMagicians.ca site. It'll be financially difficult on the magicians whom are listed in my roster, but I have sent them all an email, explaining that the website was shut down because the competition thought I shouldn't be in business. My updated mandate is: "To be one of many magicians in the Vancouver area, and hope that event planners only use me for some of their events." Boy, with that kind of enthusiasm I should make millions!
Clinton W. Gray
Magician in Vancouver BC |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
Hi Clinton -
What about the idea of stating online that your directory is a "Private Directory"? You could explain that a "Public Directory" is like a phone book in print or online... anyone can pay money to advertise and be listed. However, with this "Private Directory", it is published by your company "Clinton Gray Entertainment", and it reflects the opinions of your company. State that because it is a "Private Directory", the listings are by invitation only, and not open to all of the public. Don't state online whether your entertainers pay or not to be listed. I'm not sure if your current approach reflects on you in the most positive light (with the message about why the page is covered up). It reads a bit like a political campaign. - Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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Clinton W. Gray New user 100 Posts |
My wife agrees that it seems rather negative.
I'm going to disclose something now that my friends have known for years. The VancouverMagicician.ca was never intended to anything other than a place for me to play web designer. I didn't want to experiment with my own clintonwgray.com site, so I paid $9.95 for the vancouvermagician.ca domain and started playing. After a while I became interested in learning about google page ranking and somehow in a few months I became number one! It took on a life of it's own and became an actual place people went to look for magicians in Vancouver. To me, Shawn, Rick, and Mike it was just a big joke. I'd make up fake magicians, write "criteria" points, and at one point I even had a rating system! Of course the ratings were just stuff I'd invent... At this point I'm going to start learning about back-end code, PHP MySQL etc., so who knows where it will go. Truth be told, I don't care. It's fun for me and I'm learning lots of stuff. I'm also finding out who my real friends are... that in itself is the best lesson I could have ever hoped for. Thanks for your suggestion, Donald, I appreciate it.
Clinton W. Gray
Magician in Vancouver BC |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
You're welcome, Clinton.
Agencies are free to choose which performers they want to promote. I fail to see how your business is so different from that. Do magicians write to Notable Entertainment to complain they aren't being hired / promoted / listed on their roster? - Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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Clinton W. Gray New user 100 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-10-22 22:17, Donald Dunphy wrote: No they don't, but the difference (as explained to me to MANY Vancouver magicians) is that I am a part of the brotherhood and should promote all or none. Notable doesn't have the ethical dilemma...
Clinton W. Gray
Magician in Vancouver BC |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
I still don't quite see it that way. Many performers are in business for themselves, and promote themselves only (not others) through their own website. Some performers even provide links to other entertainers (not links to all, links to only a few), or verbal recommendations.
A privately owned website / business is a different thing from a magic club. However, the explanation of "Public Directory" vs. "Private Directory" answers that issue. Maybe not to the satisfaction of some, but it still answers that issue. - Donald P.S. Should a magic club have to promote local magicians who aren't members, on their website? Why not?
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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Gordyboy Loyal user British Columbia, Canada 216 Posts |
It's quite normal and acceptable to refer business to others that you feel are competent and capable of putting on a good show for customers. It's your good name on the line, so you shouldn't refer to anyone unless you're willing to stand behind it. If I want to be on your list I should understand what the criteria is and take the steps to meet the criteria and earn a spot. Maybe I'd never make it, but I'd be better for having tried. Or, as has been suggested, I could do the work of creating and marketing my own site and making my own list.
I think that if the club is promoting someone, it should be all or none, but individuals are free to promote who they wish. If people are upset with you it's probably because you've done a good job |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
I also think that how a person words things is important. It can make a difference.
Sometimes it's not just what you are trying to say, but how you say it. For example, on the site, a person can word recommendations without having to spend a lot of time on those that didn't meet the criteria (and why they didn't). After all, the site is really supposed to be aimed at the prospect (potential customer) and helping them, rather than at telling other magicians why they didn't make it onto the list (why they aren't "good enough"). Ray Wong might have been saying this in his earlier post, just in a different way, when he referred to wording things with a "softer tone". - Donald P.S. I once got into trouble for sharing my opinion with a prospect, about why I cost more than another performer. The prospect asked me, and I told her. What I said was mis-translated, and got back to the other performer, causing a bit of a riff between us. So, I can relate somewhat.
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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mattjohnson Elite user Canada 451 Posts |
Hi Guys,
For the record, I did not get an email saying the website had been shut down & further more it has not been financially difficult on me! I resent the presumption that not being listed on any particular site will cause me financial problems! Come on, you know me better than that! MJ Posted: Oct 26, 2008 1:47pm ------------------------------- You know I read this thread again this morning and one part caught my eye. When Ray stated "it will be my purpose to promote at all times harmony amongst those interested in magic and its allied arts..." Clinton responded: "...My company has no interest in such things. It's mandate is only to ensure that we become the top booking agency of magicians in the Vancouver area, and that event planners only hire entertainers within our roster. That's why the Vancouver Magician site exists." Event planners only hire magicians in your roster?... While I may have been on Clinton's roster I certainly do not look to it for work! Your statement implies that your website should be the only destination for event planners in Vancouver and that this will ultimately make other magicians websites obsolete! GOOD LUCK WITH THAT! Listen, business is business (trust me I know the business side of show business!) but stepping on other peoples toes to get there is not the right way to go about it ! I had not given much thought to the fact that I was on Clinton's website before but now I am glad that I am not. I will continue to run my business as I see fit, with integrity and I will hold on to the event planners that have been my clients for years. Cheers, MJ |
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Clinton W. Gray New user 100 Posts |
Matthew,
You know that I hold your opinion in the highest regard. If you say that the website is wrong, then it is wrong, period. Obviously my mandate is crap, and for the record, I never had any mandate in my life! I was just "fighting back" against people who were upset with me. I will update the website today. Clinton
Clinton W. Gray
Magician in Vancouver BC |
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trickychaz Special user West Virginia 549 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-12 14:53, prestyman wrote: What does awards have anything to do with ones performance? Just because they haven't won any awards doesn't mean that they have a terrible act. Also, are the guys listed on your site award winners? If not then this could make some upset. Chaz |
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Clinton W. Gray New user 100 Posts |
Quote:
What does awards have anything to do with ones performance? Just because they haven't won any awards doesn't mean that they have a terrible act. You are absolutely correct. They may be wonderful acts, but have simply chosen not to enter magic competitions. However, an "award-winning" magician IS important to me, so to be included on my private list of magicians, they must have won awards.
Clinton W. Gray
Magician in Vancouver BC |
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montymagi Special user Slidell La 752 Posts |
I have seldom got booking off someones website. Most of mine come from word of mouth and my own marketing. If you have problems getting booking just because you are not on someones website then you need to learn more about marketing. Clinton has a right to exclude anyone he wants, it is his website. So long as he does not go around saying or putting on his website that if they are not included they are not any good I don't see any problem at all.
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Clinton W. Gray New user 100 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-12-12 09:12, spacecop wrote: It does list the criteria points that I think are important, see Criteria for Vancouver Magicians but it clearly defines it is a private list, and it also explains that if someone is NOT listed it does not mean they are a bad performer. Since I use this list to refer clients to other magicians when I'm not available, it's important that the magicians meet standards that are important to me. We all do the same in real life: Someone calls, we're already booked, and we recommend a friend who can do a great job. I've just made it easier, by building a website. With the wbsite, when someone needs a magician, they can see my schedule , and if I'm not avaiable they can make a choice from 13 other magicians that I recommend. BTW, I have removed the "awards" component of the criteria. That's why I like the forum. It was a direct result of the suggestions I got here. Thank you. BR, Clinton
Clinton W. Gray
Magician in Vancouver BC |
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montymagi Special user Slidell La 752 Posts |
I saw your website and thought it was very nice. You spoke positive about the people on your list with downing those who are not. You don't even claim it's a list of all magicians in the area only some. I am glad to hear you took the Awards criteria away. Just because someone does not like to compete does not mean they are not a great magician. Although those who have won awards have proven themselves.
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Big Daddy Cool Inner circle 1604 Posts |
It's your site. Your criteria. Not every magician in Nashville is allowed to perform on my Music City Magic show, because I have certain criteria they must meet to be booked. You're doing the same thing. if people not included don't like it let them go eat sand! The only people you are accountable to are God and your wife (if married). As long as you are right with them, then nobody else's opinion matters!
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Wait a minute- we're accountable to our wife???
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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