|
|
Steven True Special user Bonney Lake,WA 765 Posts |
I saw a video on youtube some time back, can not remeber who it was, and they did a head chopper routine. I really liked the patter that the performer used and want to know if it is ethical to use the same patter but for a disecto instead of a head chopper in my act? Didn't know if this was a grey area or a flat no!
Thanks Steven |
RJE Inner circle 1848 Posts |
Ask him for permission. Otherwise, I'd say it is not ethical just to use it.
|
Donal Chayce Inner circle 1770 Posts |
What RJE said, more or less
BTW--for all of those who lament the fact that our secrets can't be legally protected, patter is one thing that can, in fact, be copyrighted. As a matter of practice I copyright all of my scripts once I know that I'm (finally) through tinkering with them. |
Josh Chaikin Inner circle Kansas City 1430 Posts |
It's pretty much been covered. I would say that it is unethical to use someone's script in its entirety. Using a line here or there, or the framework to springboard your own idea is fine. There are multiple schools of thought on the subject. Jeff McBride is of the idea that when you buy a new trick, you throw out the paper with the patter after learning the methodology, forcing you to come up with your own presentation. Whit Haydn supports the idea of using the patter that the creator made for it (he invented it, he knows the best way to present it), and only altering it here and there to tailor fit your persona.
I don't think it's a good idea to just take someone else's presentation entirely, because you can't possibly have the same personality as them, and it will fall flat. If you have permission though...it's no longer an ethical issue. |
Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
Since you are a different person, did you consider adapting this patter that you like to the personality of the character you are impersonating on stage.
Rewrite it in your own words, add a few smart quotes, give it some of your personality (if only in the tone of the voice)... Then it will be ethical (and magically better).
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
|
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I can't imagine a situation in which using the patter is a good idea. How long have you been in magic? Just curious for this is the cornerstone of being a professional.
We practically all do the same tricks, it is actually performance of them (which is called patter for some idiotic reason) is what sets us apart. Using one from anothers show, even in part, is wrong.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
Steven True Special user Bonney Lake,WA 765 Posts |
I want to thank you all for your posts. After re reading my question I realized I needed to clarify a little. I was not looking to use the entire scripted patter of the performer, the name I still can not remember, but rather a small poem used during the routine. I have been performing magic for 35 years and would never use another performers whole routine or act. The majority of my routine is my own but I wanted to add just the short 6 line poem because it would enhance the comedy of the routine, IMHO. Ifeel bad that I can't remeber the performers name and will be embarressed when I do remember. Again Thank you for all of your posts and it has been a help to me.
Steven |
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Not only should you not use the "whole routine" you should not take out lines, or even one line.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
ryansmagic Regular user Reading, PA 147 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-11-17 10:17, Dannydoyle wrote: Ok let me ask a question, and maybe this should be another topic. I just started working with the routine "It that your ring?" off of the Joshua Jay talk about tricks DVD's. There is a line in the instructions that I use word for word, which is a great line. Is that ok? Typically when I find a trick or routine, that I like, I perform it almost exactly as the book/DVD suggests, for the first few times. This is just to see if it will work for me in front of an audience. If I find it works then I invest the time to personalize it to suit me. Is this ok? |
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Now we reach a difference. You purchased the routine, did not "see someone do it".
The difference being that hopefully the author you purchased it from (and I am assuming he did) sold you an original routine. To simply "take a line" from someones routine, without purchasing it, then it is wrong.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
ryansmagic Regular user Reading, PA 147 Posts |
I see your point.
|
JPK Loyal user 272 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-11-17 10:17, Dannydoyle wrote: So asking someone to "pick a card" would be wrong? Now what am I going to do? Is "good evening ladies and gentlemen" also off limits? I better not ask for any "volunteers". Sorry I couldn't resist. I actually never use any of those lines anyway. John Kardel
John Kardel
|
Steven True Special user Bonney Lake,WA 765 Posts |
I understand what you are saying Danny. You have never used even one line in your carrer, that you heard another use in their shows? Please don't think this is a personal attack from me to you. I just see some statments like that and it makes me wonder. Please again, do not think I am calling you a liar or doubting you but rather questioning the statement.
Thanks Steven |
Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts |
I can't see that anyone can help using phrases or concepts that we got from someone/thing. But the point might be our purposefully taking something specific from another.
If you watch the magic with finger rings in the L&L publishing series, you will see the same basic joke premise whenever they ask someone to take off their ring. It seems like a concept that everyone had seen and used since it seemed a natural thing to joke about. (My personal feelings aside). Now I love Whit Haydn's magic, and his opinion is that I should use his act word for word, because we learn from doing it right, then we branch out. But taking his words is a different thing than taking a common concept I think. Right or wrong would depend on the situation and the person you are taking from I think. Not so much the amount you take.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
|
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-11-23 14:45, Steven True wrote: Are you asking if I ever lifted an original line from anothers act? No I have not. Have I used lines which are from a store bought routine? Absolutly yes. But that is plenty different from lifting an entire set of lines which are written and not sold. No I have never seen a line and said "wow let me put that in my act now". I don't exactly see what it makes you "wonder" about. It is a pretty clear cut line. If someone sells the lines, in a book, they have been compensated properly for the lines. If you simply see them and like them, well it is nothing short of theft. The difference being the originator has not been properly compensated. I also see the value in using store bought lines word for word. The timing and misdirection are all thought out, tested and ready to go. It is a great way to learn. BUT again they person selling them is intent on teaching. The person being stolen from is simply a victim. Still "wondering"?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
Steven True Special user Bonney Lake,WA 765 Posts |
I do understand Danny. You have made your point very well. I have to admit I never really thought about it in that way. Just for everyone's info, I have not used nor am I planning on using the lines in my act. I am not going to sit here and say, "I have seen the err of my ways", but I do understand what you all are saying and I do thank you for your help and comments. I knew I could come here and ask a question like this and get a lot of good advice. I do thank you all for your help.
Thank you Steven |
montymagi Special user Slidell La 752 Posts |
Steven if you really like it try to contact the guy and ask him. If you go through that much trouble to ask him and you are not in his area he may say yes just out of the respect you have shown him. I'm thinking that if someone contacted me like that I would more than likely tell them yes.
|
Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3222 Posts |
See Whit Haydn's posts on page three of the topic, Using one liners made famous by other magicians. He explains the ethics of this situation very well. What he wrote about just "one liners" would apply to the broader issue of multiple lines too.
It's always best to ask. In the last 5 years, I've asked three different magicians if I could use one of their ideas. In each case, I modified a line they used to suit me, or my presentation. In all three cases, they said, "yes." Had they said, "no" I would have written something else to say instead. Now, I can perform without worrying about the issues Whit Haydn mentions in his posts that I referred to above.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-11-23 14:45, Steven True wrote: ... even if it is and... I would have preferred to read that you are looking to build up the courage to ask the person whose work you like rather than a request that condone taking without permission. Then to flip the argument around and go after someone with rhetorical tricks... sad. I'll be happy to look in and offer some help if you want to work on your own script here online.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Using someones patter (0 Likes) |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.02 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |