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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts 
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No, you should watch the program.
They went into a High School and the kids were having a very lively discussion about Lincoln. These high school kids were able to look at the entire picture without calling him a Savior or a Villian. It was not black and white. It was actually quite impressive. Most of the people who participated in the show were able to easily come to grips with the dichotomy that was Lincoln. Like most people Lincoln was three dimensional. He used the N word, he told racist jokes, he believed in white supremecy. He also preserved the Union, wrote the Gettysburg Address, and issued the Emancipation Proclamation.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts
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To me the most interesting part of Lincolns Presidency was the war. And how he handled it. How many people who consider Lincoln a hero for what he did for this country would have supported his tactics and methods?
Suspending Habeas Corpus against American citizens? Refusing to even acknowledge the CSA and treating them as rebels, insurgents and even terrorists? Crushing the rebellion with no mercy whatsoever? Lincoln never negotiated with the Confederate States. They would have loved to sit down and try to work something out. He wasn't having ANY of that B.S. I'm actually surprised I haven't some of the usual suspects around here calling him a "War Criminal". What George Bush has done in the war on terror is absolute childs play compared to what Lincoln did to save this country. And I, for one, am glad Lincoln did it.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-02-12 16:03, Vandy Grift wrote: I have never seen one spark of evidence that this was the case. Not one. And a PBS documentary doesn't count as evidence, either. I have read and studied at least 90% of all Lincoln's published speeches and letters, and I cannot fathom that some kind of "smoking gun" proving him a "white supremacist" is lurking around in the other 10% without it being plastered all over college campuses by historical revisionists. He was a complex man, to be sure. But Lincoln was no racist in any usual sense of the word. If you got that from PBS, then PBS has a bunch of ideological idiots rather than bonafide historians doing their research for them. It's not a big deal. But I studied with some of the most prominent Lincoln scholars in the U.S. (Harry Jaffa, to name just one; and my dissertation adviser was also a Lincoln expert who did his Ph.D. with Harvey Mansfield at Harvard), and have continued to study Lincoln for a quarter of a century. I don't need a bunch of PBS leftist wackos telling me that Lincoln believed in white supremacy. Vandy, don't let them tell you that, either. Write a letter to PBS and tell them that a certain unhinged person has assured you it isn't true. Ahhhh......fuggedaboudit. I'm just grumpy because I need a beer. Real bad. |
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts
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Jeff, I can't tell if you are serious or not. Are you? I'm sure you've read the Lincoln/Douglas debates.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-02-12 16:44, stoneunhinged wrote: Perhaps you missed this in your studies? "I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which, in my judgment, will forever forbid their living together in perfect equality: and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there should be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the supremacy. Yeah, it's a b***h huh? Forgive me but I don't think it gets any clearer than that. Now, you can claim that is a purely political statement. And that may be true. But it remains. I hope people can keep what I said about understanding the man in the context of his time in mind. I'm not here to trash Lincoln. I hate to be the one bringing this forth. But what is, is. I can't change it. 16 days to go. Hang in there.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts
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No, I didn't miss it. But yes, it was a political statement made in southern Illinois, which was much more favorable to slavery than the northern part of the state.
But parse the statement very carefully. Lincoln, like some of our close friends here at the Café  , was a lawyer who was VERY careful with his words.
1. There is a physical difference. That is true. Black people have a different skin color than white people. 2. This makes it difficult for them to live together in perfect equality. Also true. The remnants of slavery are such that inequality is still rampant through the U.S. to this day. 3. If a necessity requires a difference--i.e., should the situation require a difference such as the existence of slavery (which Lincoln was clearly and explicitly on the record against)--he would rather belong to the group which has the power rather than the group that can be enslaved. Now, I agree with him 100%. Were a bizarre situation to exist in which blue-eyed and brown-eyed people refuse--because of the opinion of the majority, not my opinion--to live together equally, well I confess that I'd rather the blue-eyed people be the masters and not the slaves. Not because blue-eyed people are somehow morally or genetically superior, but because I myself do not want to be a slave. That is what Lincoln meant by the statement, as the overwhelming remainder of the entire body of his speeches as well as his public life demonstrates. But I must confess: you very quickly found THE one statement which some use as a smoking gun. I'm dying for a beer. Dying. |
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts
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I undersatnd all that, I really do.
But I also disargee with your statement that Lincoln wasn't a racist in the "usual sense of the word". I believe that for the most part he was a racist in the PUREST sense of the word. But I also understand why. Quote:
On 2009-02-12 17:18, stoneunhinged wrote: I could find more, but I'm not going to. I can't think of many people I hold in higher esteem than Lincoln. I hope you understand that.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts
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By "usual sense of the world" I mean something like Ku Klux Klan and Nazis and that kind of crap. If you mean that Lincoln thought blacks were different from whites culturally or in some other kind external way, well OK. But if the question is whether Lincoln thought that blacks were human beings who ought to be considered as human beings within the context of "all men are created equal", he made it crystal clear that he thought that blacks were human beings and were covered by the "self-evident" truths of the Declaration of Independence. By that standard he was no more a racist than you or I am.
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts
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By the way, have you popped open a beer yet? How is it? Good?
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Ken Northridge Inner circle Atlantic City, NJ 2394 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-02-12 13:19, LobowolfXXX wrote: Wait a second...oh yeh, the very unpopular president went on to be regarded as one of the most popular ever! Hmmmm. Although, I must admit, Lincoln didn't have a chance later in his second term to royaly screw things up.
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts
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1861, Abe Lincoln walks into a bar with a somber look on his face and orders a beer. The bartender walks up and says "Hey Mr. President, you look bummed out, what is the problem?". Abe looks down and says "It's my wife, she complains about the new beard and that I don't spend enough time with her or the kids and that I have too many friends and staff members coming in and out of the white house all the time and that I need to walk the dog, it never ends". The bartender shakes his head and says "So she's a big nagger", Abe looks up and replies "No, she's a white woman about five foot tall".
Makes you wonder. |
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TKO MAGIC Regular user 130 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-02-12 16:15, Vandy Grift wrote: It's amazing what todays media will do to our leaders lol |
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts
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Hello!
It's kind of funny that you write that. I read book years ago called the wit and wisdom of Lincoln or something similar and he told a lot of racist jokes. Jokes that would get anyone in unbelieveable hot water today.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-02-12 17:28, stoneunhinged wrote: Not yet. Not for a while. I have a night from hell coming up. If I survive...beer will flow like wine. As far as the other. I hear ya, I hear ya. I actually regret bring it all up. I honestly do.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts
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Well I for one have never, ever told a politically incorrect joke. Nor have I ever used the "N" word.
Unless I was under the influence of alcoholic beverages, of course. But that doesn't count. Did Lincoln drink as heavily as I do? Hey everyone: drink for for Abe tonight! Then drink one for me. I'm off to bed. However, it's nearly midnight and I'm no more sleepy than a priest in a hoor house. |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts
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And Vandy, no need to apologize. Lincoln was a dammed courageous man to see the world in the way he did in a time and place where such an attitude was rare. Measured by today's standards he may not seem as "enlightened" as Canadians, but we still ought to be proud of him. And I can tell that you are.
Now, the stuff hardest to explain is his serious consideration of a proposal to send all of those of African heritage back to Africa. He determined it to be a logistical impossibility and let the idea drop. That was NOT a consideration to be proud of. But it didn't make him a son of Nathan Bedford Forrest, either. |
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts
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Of course not. I don't think we can even begin to understand the struggles (internal and external) he was facing. I know I can't.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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Posted: Feb 12, 2009 09:03 pm 
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