I'm a fire performer who is finally crossing the line into learning and performing magic. For fire acts, no matter where you are or what show you're doing a permit is necessary.

When doing magic, however, at what point to people feel they need to start getting a permit? I'm curious both for indoor and outdoor shows.

Please also include the region you're in and if anyone knows of "Fire-Friendly" towns? Savannah Georgia used to be great for performing fire in certain areas, but one guy ruined the performing for everyone (without even using fire)

Sometimes you wont even be able to get a gig WITH a permit. It's all about laws AND insurance. If the venue owner's insurance doesn't allow fire acts, you can't do anything about it. Great White ruined it for us all. I did a gig once where I was doing my patented bench grinder act (hang a grinder from my piercings, turn it on, grind files into the wheels, sparks fly, yay). 5 seconds into the sparking part, a guy rushes to me onstage and whispered in my ear "dude, there's no fire allowed". First I thought "don't call me dude", then I wondered "there IS no fire". Just the idea of a spark indoors was enough for them to worry about liability. Outdoor events I believe are fair game (pun intended).

I have to agree that Great White did ruin it for us all. I live in Boston now, so I'm feeling the brunt of it!

What about specific fire insurance, though? Is that usually enough to placate people? The most popular I've seen Specialty Insurance Agency (formerly Clowns of the US http://www.specialtyinsuranceagency.com) charges $200/year for $1M/$2M coverage.

The west coast has put some amazing things into place for performing, and we're starting a push in the East now to adopt that and more.

Yeah, you can secure your own insurance, but that won't guarantee the venue will allow it. People are SO fraidy cats.

It really is regional. Chicago- Completely banned indoors. Period.
Where I live, it is allowed but there are fees for inspection by the fire marshall PLUS a light up fee.
Outdoors, usually no problem.
I always get in touch with the local fire marshalls and let them know what I am going to be doing and where, even outdoors.
99% of the venues I book require fire performers insurance- Including outdoor festival shows (Yes...Specialty Insurance. As far as I know, they are the only ones who will cover fire performers. The rates went up last year though...due to freakin hypnotists letting specs fall over! The irony.)
I have found that in towns where fire performance is allowed at all, bringing in the fire marshall to put the stamp of approval on your show combined with your own liability insurance can ease the minds of the venue owners enough.
But I won't even light a cigarette on stage without the approval of the marshall. I have most of them for the state of Michigan on speed dial. They know us by name and frequently ask us about the safety level of other performers.
This is a big issue with us. If someone else burns someplace down, that is one less place I can work. Burn yourself all you want, but don't damage my source of income. If I see someone light up or burn unsafely I report them to the locals without hesitation. I do things by the book, I pay the fees. I am going to make darn sure that everyone else in my market is going to do the same.

Technically speaking, if you do more than light a match on stage you should have a permit. If you don't, in some areas you are violating the law.

And welcome to the Forums Dio...So far, I like what you post. Keep it up.
Gwyd

Thanks for the warm reception, Gwyd. I feel like a small-fry here with my measly number of posts. The "inner circle" is a long way away for me, to be certain.

I wasn't sure if magicians were able to "slide it under the table" so to speak with their magic. Sure if you're billed as a fire spinner, fire eater, or breather that raises red flags, but I didn't know if people turned a blind eye to a tiny corner of flash paper here and there. Good to know. I don't believe in "easier to ask forgiveness than permission", and cops usually don't buy that either.

I have seen a few spring-up fire insurance businesses, but I don't know if any of them are as reliable as Specialty. Of course, I guess it helps them that they have very few people actually file claims!

Yeah, fire magic is hard to work with

Gwyd is right, and on top of that the more of these "stamped approved" gigs you get under your belt, the safer your resume looks.

Oh, and I second Gywds welcome to Dia del Goat. I must assume that you are an Aries.

Thank you for the welcome, (how do I shorten your name, Nips? TGN?). And close, aries is a ram, I'm a goat/capricorn. And one of the most stubborn ol' goats you've ever met, unfortunately.

I definitely know what you're saying about as many gigs under your belt as possible. From what I've seen in the performing world, the better standing you have with a local, or better state fire marshall, the better.

I know many many tricks to requesting permits for straight-up fire performing, but is there a different formula at all for magicians? I'm sure it starts with grabbing up MSDS for flash paper, Lycodium and anything else you're using. When/if I buy an effect like Fickle Fire which appears to come with its own fuel, are MSDS easy to find for it? Or is it a really standard fuel like ronsonol?

I look forward to learning more from you guys!

And we're looking forward to learning from you (Aries... what was I thinking?!). When purchasing ANYTHING it is a good idea to always ask for copies of MSDS, certs, etc. I make hand forged PRECISION made body jewelry and lots of other items from 316L stainless steel (which is an implant grade of steel). Some of my clientele have state and/or local ordinances that require proof of material. So when I go to the mill and buy my metal, I ask for a copy of the cert. The cert gives full details of the steels composition, origination, and specs. In Philly, if you run a piercing shop (like I do), if you cannot provide proof of cert of material you lose your body art license.

Philly? I'm jealous! You've got it easy for permits, then. The fm's in your area are pushovers!

They're not pushovers... they are just more likely to take a bribe.

I'm new to pyrotechnics in magic (other than flash paper, etc) and have been astounded at the limitations and requirement surrounding the use of fire and pyrotechnics. In Pennsylvania, a state that still allows you to buy and use fire crackers as long as you have a permit from the town board, makes you register with the state if you are, "a business using fireworks while making money." Fireworks includes, from my understanding, a lit cigarette to flash powder (considered a high explosive by BATFE). So to use theatrical flash powder in Pennsylvania, you have to a) register with the state, b) get a permit from the local authorities c) be insured for up to $1 millon d) get a BATFE license for manufacturing fireworks on site, and then destroy all unused powder at the scene unless you want to afford building a type 1 magezine for high explosives.
What is it like in your state?

Clyde