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fhood New user Southern California 86 Posts |
I came across this "concept" in another forum here at the Café, and I did some research on this. I am very intrigued by this concept. Besides the obvious, how might a mentalist use this method in an effect? I have thought of perhaps doing the Kruskal Count on a deck of shuffled and randomly mixed cards before an effect so that I know in advance what card the spectator will stop on when they do the Kruskal Count themselves using the ordinary method. This would be a good mind-reading effect (i.e. having them concentrate on the card they stopped on). However, this does not allow the deck to be shuffled prior to them doing their Kruskal Count. I know that the mentalist can just "follow along" with his/her own Kruskal Count as the spectator does theirs, but I think it would be more effective for the mentalist to have done his/her Count beforehand. Also, if the mentalist did their Count beforehand, they could turn their back, leave the room, etc while the spectator does theirs.
Any ideas on using this principle in mentalism? Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks! Frank P.S. I am aware, too, that the Kruskal Count does NOT always 100% guarantee the same end card, but I'll play the odds!
Frank
www.88pianokeys.com |
Nir Dahan Inner circle Munich, Germany 1390 Posts |
In any case I think the KC could not be used in mentalism, maybe in mental magic, if you see what I mean.
I used to do it for a group of 15-20 people, and have them all shout out loud the name of the card at the end of the process. in some cases that required people to stand on tables and chairs (you need all 15 people to see the cards) that was not a problem in the university environment I did it in (actually it created some nice atmosphere). Anyway bear in mind that the effect involves a long counting procedure (after all it is a COUNT) nir |
dchung Special user Montreal 616 Posts |
Nir, I don't see why this could not work in a mentalism setting, given the right dressing up.
And Frank, in mentalism, who needs 100% accuracy? |
Nir Dahan Inner circle Munich, Germany 1390 Posts |
I hope you could try and come up with a mentalism type presentation for this effect...
The problem also is that because the effect is so selfworking - what you explain is really what happens, that some not so clever spectators might take it and try it out and find out that it works for them. (I had a guy like that one time) in my opinion it is not a mental effect - maybe I am wrong, but I am open for suggestions, if you come up with a presentation let me know. nir |
Sid Mayer Special user Santa Fe, NM 656 Posts |
In my opinion, the Kruskal count is an interesting mathematical curiousity and nothing more. I don't believe it is applicable to mentalism ... mental magic, maybe.
Mentalism is supposed to be about various forms of psychic ability. Any effect that involves calculations (think of a number, double it, blah, blah) or endless dealing (take the pile that contains your card snd...) is obviously a puzzle. Anyone watching may not know exactly how it works but they will be sure that it ain't got nuthin' to do with brain waves. Having said all that, if you want to get a feel for the reliability of the Kruskal count, start with a shuffled deck (or an unshuffled deck which, for this purpose, is mathematically the same thing) and perform the Kruskal process sucessively for each of the top ten cards. It's kind of hard to justify all that dealing when it doesn't work and you miss. Sid
All the world's a stage ... and everybody on it is overacting.
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Turk Inner circle Portland, OR 3546 Posts |
I have never heard of the Kruskal Count? Where can I look to begin learning the Kruskal Count and any effects that uses the principle.
Thanks for the info. Turk
Magic is a vanishing Art.
This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto. Eschew obfuscation. |
fhood New user Southern California 86 Posts |
Go to Google Search Engine (www.google.com) and type in Kruskal Count. You will get a list of several sites that adequately explain what it is. It's pretty interesting!
Have fun!
Frank
www.88pianokeys.com |
Mr Amazing Special user 617 Posts |
Quote:
dchung wrote: Dchung, maybe it's possible to dress it up... but may I suggest you simply ask the participant afterwards how it all was achieved. If they answer in terms of "counting", "math", "trick" or such, focusing on the cards or on the hands etc - then you've most likely not performed a feat of mind reading. We are not the judges... /Matias |
myshadow Regular user 109 Posts |
I find this discussion very interesting. I had not heard of the Kruskal count before but I think it has great potential. Yes it works automatically. Yes a spectator could try it for himself and find it works. So that's where the "logical disconnect" process comes in. Try and dress up the effect in a way that hints at some other process being involved which you either then overtly disprove yourself or leave the spectators to think through and disprove. I am going to give this some more thought and if I get antywhwere will get back to this thread.
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Nir Dahan Inner circle Munich, Germany 1390 Posts |
myshadow, I thought along the same lines BUT if a "stupid" spec just takes the cards at home and just try it and sees that it works - for him the solution is found!
it is like a 3 year old tries to see if a coin vanishes from his hand by saying abracadabra 7 times and blowing. so if it works he searches no further. what I thought was to insert an element that will cause the spec at home to fail when trying to reconstruct. that means adding something to the count itself, like an added rule or whatever (although it gets things more complicated...). anyways, since it is a COUNTING effect - I don't think I'll perform it in mental oriented presentations... hope you can make it - and don't forget to let us know. nir p.s. I found this trick was more mystifying for intelligent audiences than to a real layperson. p.p.s. the only reason I do it is because I get everybody shouting at the end, which is something people remember. |
chrismatt Special user Why would you read any of my 978 Posts |
If you use 2 or even 4 decks shuffled together, it should improve your odds considerably and make the trick seem more impossible. On the down side: all that counting!
Details make perfection, but perfection is no detail.
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Nir Dahan Inner circle Munich, Germany 1390 Posts |
the only time I would do it with 4 decks is in a sleeping lab...
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Raj Madhok New user Minneapolis, MN 15 Posts |
Gordon Bean has a nice effect using the Kruskal Principle in Labyrinth. I believe it's called "A labyrinth inside a labyrinth". I don't have my issues at hand to tell you which one.
Raj |
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