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Dave V Inner circle Las Vegas, NV 4824 Posts |
I answered you on Scoundrels Forum. Anyone who wants to see the full conversation is welcome to join us over there.
http://scoundrelsforum.com/index.php?top......msg21699
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-05-06 08:50, Tom Bartlett wrote: The Shagbarks around where I grew up in Tennessee and North Carolina looked just like Ed's shells, and like the ones in the photo I posted. They were not smooth, but were rough and ribbed like the photo. They were much bigger than the Black Walnuts that Tom uses. They had a snout just as Ed depicted in his model, and just as is depicted in the photo. When I first saw Ed's shell, I thought it was a real Shagbark Hickory shell that had been varnished. I was surprised to find out it was resin. It looked like the shells that I remembered. It looked like the shells in the photo I posted from the nut farm. They did not look like Black Walnuts--at least, not like the ones that I have seen from Tom. The idea of using a rough-textured natural shell for a better grip properly belongs to Andrew Pinard who created the La Magiorre shells pictured above, long before Tom's shell. Tom created a beautiful natural Black Walnut shell made by hand. Ed created a beautiful plastic shell based on a Shagbark Hickory nut. I didn't see any conflict. Neither I nor my company stand to gain from supporting Ed's shells over Tom's. We sell both sets, and get the same profit from each as any other retailer. We have given Tom a great deal of encouragement and support. We have featured Tom's shells on our flagship DVD, not Ed's. Tom's sole argument is his conviction that NO Shagbark Hickory nut looks like the one that Ed produced. There is a photo from a nut farm web site in my above posts that shows Shagbarks that look just like Ed's. I remembered Shagbarks being rough from my childhood. There are, after all, many varieties of Shagbark Hickory, including Dover, Eliot, Hale, Papershell, Jackson, Kentucky, Kirkland, Leaming, Meridian, Milford, Rice, Swain, Vest, and Woodbourne. Just what are you claiming of yours is being stolen and misused, Tom? Are you really willing to call two men liars and worse because you are so sure that all Shagbarks look smooth like the ones you are familiar with? |
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Tom Bartlett Special user Our southern border could use 763 Posts |
Quote: No I will to let the evidence, allow others to form their own opinions. I’m not looking for a group of people or a consensus to take my side I looking for ad admission that my Deacon Dan's inspired yours but I guess that a lot to expect considering all that you and Ed have already posted here and at Scoundrels Forum, which I encourage everyone to read for them selves..On 2009-05-06 14:47, Whit Haydn wrote:
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Well, I can state emphatically that the Deacon Dan shells had nothing to do with the inspiration of Ed Parrish's shells. He was working on those long before they came out, and before he had seen or heard of the Black Walnuts.
I was aware of both products, but didn't connect them. One was a Shagbark shell in my mind, one a Black Walnut. But I never spoke with Ed about Tom's shells, nor showed him one. The first I heard from Ed about his shells was when he sent me several hand cast sets in 2005 or 2006. I kept one set and sold two sets--both were sold before the 2007 Soapy Smith Nite because they were used there. I am one who tries to be very fair and generous with credit and would be happy to give you the credit for inspiring the Shagbark shells, Tom, except that I know for a fact that Ed Parrish created these without any reference to the set you were making. Neither I, nor the School for Scoundrels is profiting from the sale of Ed's Shagbarks except that we buy them at wholesale and sell them--just as we do Tom's. You are completely off base here, Tom. |
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Tom Bartlett Special user Our southern border could use 763 Posts |
Quote: Whit,
On 2009-05-06 18:10, Whit Haydn wrote: You do not know how much I wish I could believe you, I truly mean it. Tom
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Well, Tom, I don't think you should make libelous statements about people based completely on your own conjectures, fears and suspicions rather than on any evidence or facts.
You can't imagine how badly it feels for us to be publicly accused of doing something that we didn't do, and especially by a competitor to whom we have always been friendly and helpful. It really hurts that our friend, Ed Parrish, who is one of the most pleasant and honorable people I know, has been branded a liar and thief by people whom he has never met or harmed. He designed a Skull set of shells and the Shagbarks at the same time, and that was in 2005 or 2006. I know for a fact that he developed his shells without seeing or hearing about yours. I don't know what makes you so sure of your mean suspicions, but whatever it is, it is untrue. Whether you believe me or not, this is the truth. We have let you libel us with this same trash on our own forum, and have not censored you or cut you off. You have had a chance to make your case. We run that board as a service to our own customers, and you have had a chance to slam and hurt our reputations before our own clients and customers. We believe that people can look at the evidence and make up their own minds. Bob Sheets, Chef Anton and I have all had nothing but good things to say about your work and your product, and have promoted it in our lectures, DVDs, web site and forum. Remember, this is a product that COMPETES with my own shell sets that I created in 1996. Ed Parrish was more concerned than anything else with competing with Chef and I when he started thinking about producing his set. We assured him that we encouraged other sets of shells and didn't consider it an unfriendly thing to do at all. I wish that you would adopt a more open and friendly attitude to your competition, Tom. Ed is a really good guy. He does not deserve the attacks upon his character that you have made. Chef and I have been attacked before by people we have helped, as those who remember the attempt by another competitor--whom we had also helped--to hurt our business can attest. It is unpleasant and sad. |
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Tom Bartlett Special user Our southern border could use 763 Posts |
As far as the my shells go, black walnuts all start out almost black, hence the name black walnuts unlike the shagbark hickory which gets it name from it shaggy bark not the texture of it’s shells. Again black walnuts all start out almost black it is only trough hand polishing does the beautiful colors come out. This plus the hand carving took a great deal of time and this was part of the reason I had to charge $75 a set wholesale to just make about minimum wages on each set not to mention the cost of the real leather bag I furnished (I had to buy a minimum of 100 bags to get them for $2.50 each) all this along with the inconsistency of color and size brought me to who I thought was my friend to seek his advice and wisdom. I told Whit of my idea of making a larger shell with the same attributes in cast resin so I could get consistency in color, size and get the wholesale price down around $30.00 and I would still make more profit at $30.00 than at $75.00 hand carving them. Whit told me it would be a waste of time, that anyone wanting the Deacon Dan would not mind paying his $150.00 retail price. It is this reason I feel betrayed. I mean why would he tell me it was a bad idea and tell Ed it was a good idea for him?
I do hope this explains why I feel so betrayed. Respectfully, Tom Bartlett
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
I told you the truth. I told you that I thought the real carved nut filled an important niche that wasn't being filled. The only other real nut shells on the market were the Boston Man walnuts. A beautifully-crafted set of real nuts should sell well.
I didn't think that there would be much of a market for another set of plastic shells. The La Maggiore, Street Shells, and Black Fox shells had pretty well saturated the market. That is what I told Ed Parrish as well. That is why Chef and I turned him down on producing his design. He wanted to do it anyway, and so I gave him my plastics casting guys number, and he put them out with Joe Stevens as his distributor. I gave him the same advice that I gave you. He didn't take it. |
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Magic Researcher Elite user 406 Posts |
What a bunch of silliness. All of this black walnut and shagbark talk is meaningless. To communicate without using scientific names is a waste of time. Different parts of the country have a variety of common names for plants. Common names do not communicate efficiently nor accurately. Common names mean nothing. Tom's whole accusation is meaningless. Besides, who cares?
I think I'll go pick up another set of Ed's shells. They are beautiful, hold securely, and fit my grip perfectly. Also they will last and not be affected by humidity. If I want real shells, I'll go to the grocery store to get matching shells and hollow them out with my Dremel. No use paying someone else for doing unskilled labor. MR
Repeating a falsehood often and loudly does not make it true.
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-06-04 14:45, Magic Researcher wrote: Well, I agree with you on the first part of your statement, but I would have to say Tom's shells are extremely well-made and well-finished. Beautifully done. It is hardly a matter of paying someone for unskilled labor. There is a lot of work and skill involved in producing the Deacon Dan shells. |
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The Great Dave Loyal user My Wife said "It's Me or that Stupid Magic Website!" this many times. 205 Posts |
I have been using Ed's Shagbark Shells for over a year now. They are so comfortable and easy to use that I can't imagine being without them. I use them exclusively now and keep my other shells for my collection but have no intention of performing with them anymore.
Ed really came up with a good design. I believe anyone worker who gives them a try would be very satisfied. Best, Dave
Academy of Magical Arts
Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat! Whoops, wrong hat ... |
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Magic Alaskan New user 75 Posts |
Tom, your vision is obviously failing. The photos speak for themselves. Your rants are unlogical. Get a life.....
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silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts |
........you sure told him!
Thing is, the entire issue was solved to the satisfaction of all parties Spring of 2009. Way to be topical......you might want to actually research subjects you decide to post on......you know, just so you don't look ridiculous. |
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