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StuartNolan Elite user 479 Posts |
"One should always be a little improbable." - Oscar Wilde
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Waters Inner circle 2508 Posts |
"As a man thinketh, so he is".
Great article, my friend. I appreciate you sharing that. Sean |
StuartNolan Elite user 479 Posts |
The Fred West Cardigan experiment is also interesting. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5314164.stm
Personally, I think that Hood confuses our ability to use our imaginations to treat objects and actions symbolically with superstition. For instance, I don't believe that my wedding ring contains any special supernatural power but I wouldn't like to spit on it because I understand the power of symbols, not because I'm superstitious. But maybe these things are closely linked. I thought this story was interesting because as magicians we sometimes introduce props as "photographs of Jack's victims" or "the copper penny found at the scene of the crime". Look how powerfully charged this becomes if the murder was real and recent. Imagine asking someone to wear a murderers cardigan as part of a performance. Not something I would do myself but I can imagine having someone wear Einstein's cardigan before demonstrating that they have amazing mental powers. In fact I may try something along those lines. Probably not Einstein..... Tesla maybe..... hmmm
"One should always be a little improbable." - Oscar Wilde
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JAlenS Inner circle Utah 1526 Posts |
Very very nice Stuart. I have heard of this kind of thing before but not from a scientist. This is certainly something to explore in mentalism and magic but let's not go overboard. lol
You should post this on the spooky forum. They would love this. |
Bertrand Thornley Loyal user Tampa, FL 278 Posts |
Think of the implications here. This is a good example of the fact that we live in a psycho-physical world;not merely physical. Everything we do,percieve,feel,touch and of course think is presently arising in consciousness,through consciousness. There is nothing that can be known outside of consciousness. If there was--how would you know? The point is: think about the messages we have all been getting from other people and the different forms of media since we were born. How much of it is harmful or not harmful. If we can make ourselves sick or even kill ourselves based on emotionaly charged belief, think how our beliefs have formed certain aspects of our physiology--our mind and body--over time. How much of our genetic result(what is commonly refered to as "me")might have been altered by the environment of assumption. Interesting to think about. definitely a good reason to stop watching tv
"Disbelief in magic can force a poor soul into believing in government and business." Tom Robbins
Personal Revelation: I'm not a hippopotamus |
Davit Sicseek Inner circle 1818 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-05-14 22:02, Bertrand Thornley wrote: I don't know much about this topic, I should probably read more... but a couple of things strike me whenever this sort of thing is discussed. Surely the fact that we have a consciousness to implement these sorts of discussions is evidence that we live in a psycho-physical world. We wouldn't even have a notion of "I" if that wasn't the case. So it comes as no surprise to me that our world isn't merely physical. This is pretty obvious since our constituent parts themselves are comparatively simple cells (the physical0 which together form our consciousness, or the psycho element if you wish. I guess I just don't find it surprising and I certainly don't think it's any grounds to stop watching TV. Did you not catch the final episode of Lost tonight? Tell me that's not the greatest drama ever concocted for television. Oprah is dope as well.
Send me the truth: davitsicseek@gmail.com
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Bertrand Thornley Loyal user Tampa, FL 278 Posts |
Indeed, I think comedy central is dope! Love it. By the way, not to split hairs or anything, but nobody has ever proved that cells create consciousness. Scientists can't figure that out yet. But there is much propaganda to the contrary. I just mean that tv is part of the acculturation process and can kind of "get into" peoples minds, in a destructive way.
"Disbelief in magic can force a poor soul into believing in government and business." Tom Robbins
Personal Revelation: I'm not a hippopotamus |
Bertrand Thornley Loyal user Tampa, FL 278 Posts |
By the way, I'm glad you don't find it suprising.
You'd be suprised...
"Disbelief in magic can force a poor soul into believing in government and business." Tom Robbins
Personal Revelation: I'm not a hippopotamus |
StuartNolan Elite user 479 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-05-14 20:52, JAlenS wrote: I did. Someone pointed out the inherent racism in choosing Voodoo rather than any other religion to illustrate the article. They have a point I think. To my mind the most interesting book on the mind-body question is Philosophy in the Flesh by Lakoff & Johnson, a philosopher and a linguist. They talk about how all language is metaphorical and embodied at its core. That the same neural structures used for the physical act of seeing are used to think about seeing. I'm interested in how this may tie into mirror neurone research. This suggests that when we watch someone doing something the same neurones fire as if we were doing the action ourselves. This may be a core mechanism for learning. Here is a question... when I experience a very good magic/mentalism effect that really solidly fools me I get a strong physical reaction. My stomach flutters, the ground shifts slightly beneath my feet, I feel a little light headed, I get the urge to point and to laugh. Why is this? Why such physical reactions? Is it my mirror neurons trying to copy an impossible reaction and setting off an "ontological bump" that cascades into the areas that control physical reaction? Is it just a mild fight or flight response? Both? Something else entirely? If laughter is the best medicine what are the medical effects of my reaction to magic? Could there be an effect so amazing that its nocebo effect would make me ill? (I've seen some effects so bad they make me feel queasy!) That was more than one question I'm afraid. I'm going to watch Lost today. Hoping for more polar bears. s
"One should always be a little improbable." - Oscar Wilde
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Anthony Jacquin Inner circle UK 2220 Posts |
Hi Stuart,
thanks for posting the link. Fascinating article. In terms of mentalism effect I think we can provide entertainment with nocebo. I appreciate it is a fine line because the potential is there to make someone feel bad, however this can be avoided and the effect of nocebo still delivered. Making someone weak for a time is a favorite of mine. Removing strength from an arm, making it impossible to lift things, incapable of moving etc. Unable to speak is another favorite. I also do a routine where I give someone a phobia. I would put Paul Brooks Crowley Effect in this category too. Making them possessed and babble in tongues is pretty freaky too. I am working on some video ideas at the moment that are all about putting the 'hypno' hex on people. You do have to be careful though. Recently in a stage show I suggested to someone that they had cut themselves shaving encouraging them to stick plasters all over their face. They hallucinated a lot of blood. Little did I know they suffered with low blood pressure. They responded appropriately for someone with low blood pressure and started feeling dizzy and sick. Fortunately I spotted this and suggested it away swiftly. I have no doubt they would have passed out otherwise. My father suggested to someone once that their stomach was shrinking during a weight loss session. They had had a final Burger King blowout prior to this and promptly chundered. I like effects that spook people. Chelmans version of Premonition is such an example. You are essentially using cards to tell someone when they will die, right until the last minute when coincidence intervenes. Anthony
Anthony Jacquin
Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis Updated for 2016 Now on Kindle and Audible! |
bobser Inner circle 4178 Posts |
Thanks Stuart. You very often come up with stuff that interests me. I wanna come to your home and read through your books. I will bring with me a 'fine piece'.
It's an inspirational article. Assuming the story is true, you've got to simply love the doctor's wisdom & creativity. Don't know why, just a random thought, but I was thinking whilst treading it: 'Why don't hypnotherapists work in hospices'(although some might)? I'm not talking about suggesting to someone who is terminally ill that they're going to survive (although I immediately want to give myself an argument on that too!) but rather offer a better way to make the final trip. Yes it does sound crazy, but it's possibly worth a brain storm or two.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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StuartNolan Elite user 479 Posts |
Hi Anthony,
I've certainly had experience with giving people a good feeling with suggestion. Not long ago I was at a club and someone I'd done some stuff with a few weeks before came up to me wanting to be put under just so he could have the "recharge", as he called it. I ended up with a queue of people wanting a "boost." All I was doing was a simple relaxation and guided visualization but they built it up into the best high ever with very little encouragement from me But is this the same as placebo? Are the effects you mention really the same as nocebo? Is the physical effect that magic can have on me a suggestion of some sort? That doesn't seem right to me because the physical effects aren't related to the meaning of the effect. There's no message saying "you will feel the ground shift." btw. Are there any places left for your Liverpool course? I wanna do it again. S
"One should always be a little improbable." - Oscar Wilde
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Jon_Thompson Inner circle Darkest Cheshire 2404 Posts |
Someone once put it to me that the conscious mind is a self-anthropomorphic sock puppet created by the subconscious. I agree.
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StuartNolan Elite user 479 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-05-15 09:18, Jon_Thompson wrote: Me too. Mine looks like Kermit. You might enjoy Strangers to Ourselves: Discovering the Adaptive Unconscious by Prof. Timothy D. Wilson. s
"One should always be a little improbable." - Oscar Wilde
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Anthony Jacquin Inner circle UK 2220 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-05-15 09:14, StuartNolan wrote: Hi Stuart, yes there are a few places left on the course in Liverpool. I will email you the details, it would be great to see you there. Regarding there not being a specific message in placebo or nocebo I do not think it matters. The doc can say 'this will make you feel better in 3 days' or the gypsy can simply hiss and make a curse gesture. You can fill in the blanks or they can. Another book for the reading list I have been enjoying lately, regarding giving people a 'boost', is by R Havens called Hypnosis for Cosmic Consciousness. He is a 'neo-ericksonian' hypnotherapist I respect. I was put off by the title until finding out that it is not allied to a religion or any particular ritual or spiritual thing, but instead just based on the fact that people have experienced altered states, peek experiences and mystical nirvanas, and that these experiences have certain characteristics and therefore that such experiences can simply be suggested by the hypnotist. It sure beats telling people to relax Definitely worth a look. I reckon I could build an entire stage show around the idea. All the best Ant
Anthony Jacquin
Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis Updated for 2016 Now on Kindle and Audible! |
StuartNolan Elite user 479 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-05-15 09:59, Anthony Jacquin wrote: Hmm. That's a very good point. What blanks am I filling in when I get these physical effects I wonder? I need to think more on this. s P.S. I hope to see you in robes for the Cosmic Consciousness show.
"One should always be a little improbable." - Oscar Wilde
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