If the aim of these forums is the free and open exchange of ideas, then it's criminal to have a heated topic locked up on you just because it may have off the main catagory. This happened to a bunch of us recently. I must express extreme displeasure with those in charge here. Furthermore, the one responsible for locking the topic was never part of the discussion. Just came along like the thought police and shut us down.


What a shame.

As a BBS Monitor, I can say what is being done is right. This BBS is not for flaming or bold negativism or bitter bickering on small or large stuff. There is enough of that going on daily in the real world.

There are also people who thrive on this type of negativism.

Compared to what is on the Internet, if one want to go that route then there are plenty of sites available to do it.

A lot of good stuff is presented in a positive way without boldly playing the Masked Magician. this site is about Magician's Helping Magicians Worldwide and doing a good job at it.

I commend the staff for this bold initiative and hope they keep up the good work.

As for criminal, not at all. This is not freedom of speech here, or for that matter anywhere on the Internet. If you believe that then try typing "Carnivore" or "Tri-Lateral Commission" in a search engine. You will be surprised at who is watching and what "Big Brother" is doing. (That word and phrase will probably get this message erased.)

Yes you have a right to say it openly, but when in someone's house who objects to it, then he/they can take measures to prevent it from happening again.

Now for stereotyping, I see you're from NY, Well I am from NJ and well familiar with many individuals who want to do things their way, and their way is right because they scream the loudest, sue the quickest, back themselves with radical groups, and try to beat the system, and they generally do.

The question that should be asked is this right! (When in Rome (NY) then...)

PS. I am on satellite for my ISP. In an attempt to send this message. My satellite connection was severed. I had to reboot my computer, but I did save this message. Paranoid! Coincidence? Well, you try looking into those areas and what what happens. By the way (.mil) stands for military, and they will be scanning your computer! Chalk it up to Computer Magic! It took me a half-hour just to post this message, and I had to do it through a land-line, not satellite.

I'm with Den on this one Vernon. The fact that you had the gall to post this bit of negativism publicly rather than to express your displeasures privately speaks volumes for what you consider to be a “free and open exchange”.

Steve and Co. are doing a fantastic job of keeping this forum above and apart from all the others. I think a little less attitude and alot more gratitude might be in order.

Bad form.

What is so negative about my criticism?

No offence Den, but your argument is so convoluted I can barely make sense of it.

Go back and re-read my gripe.

Furthermore, what does being from New York have anything to do with ANYTHING!! What an unusual detail to hone in on. Am I now going to be dismissed as a thug because of my geographical location?

My original criticism is simple: Why shut down a topic, (a heated, inspired, thought provoking topic) merely because it grew into something a little off catagory?

Whilst I agree I would not like to see personal Slaging off going on at the cafe and I do think that the staff do a good Job I also see vernons point. If there are no diffrences of opinion then there is no debate
Tom Cutts,Ford Kross, Thomas Wayne,Yak and myself often have Different strongly held views and I see that little is gained by locking topics Just as we get going I do not and I do not think any of the others see each others comments as personal attacks but rather strongly held views no one is posting messages like " I am right you are wrong and a F..king Pr.ck"
If a post moves the subject off topic can't the moderators Just start a new topic and move the posts to that new topic?
That's what we do at another web forum that I moderate (just a thought)
phillip

I agree with Vernon. If being a little negative is your style, it should be allowed. I personally haven't been shut down for that myself, so I can only speak in defense of Vernon who has.
Come on people, a little fire just shows we're passionate.

Platt

Thanks Platt, Thanks Jones,

A little detail may be in order: The original post concerned Yuval Kerren's bending coin over in "Good , Bad, Garbage" section. Well, this sprouted a two page debate over having items signed vs. not having items signed. Andy Leviss and Tom Cutts were major players in that discussion.
It really was quite heated and passionate. Intelligent, original points were being made.
We were told that this topic was better suited over here, in "Food For Thought". And of course, this is true. But to expect everyone to relocate and regain the momentum of an "inspired" debate is ludicrous. It's not gonna happen, nor should it have to.

I understand the need for rules and regulations, and these moderators do a great job keeping things neat and tidy, but a little bending (no pun intended) every now and then, is no big deal.

You guys are missing the point.

We are all guests here. As such you do not have the privilege to speak however and whenever you wish. If a topic has been locked and you feel it has been done so prematurely, the proper course of action is to politely drop Steve a PM and get clarification from him on why it was locked. At times he will unlock it, at times he will request you begin a new thread as this one has gone too far off topic. Other times he will just as politely explain that this was a subjective call made by him or his staff and he feels it was warranted. Thank him for his time, tell him how much you appreciate his efforts, remember where he has set this boundary, and make an effort not to cross it again.

The absolute wrong thing to do is publicly berate your hosts, calling their actions “criminal” and “shameful”. The fact that you don’t find these comments negative, again, explains a lot.

And all this after you were admittedly TOLD to move your discussion elsewhere but you chose not to.

I have seen some shameful actions here Vernon. And petty and ill-contrived and juvenile and self-centered. But not on the part of the Cafe staff that, through three posts of whining, you still haven’t managed to thank. (You didn't read this as negative, did you?)

Although I suppose I must applaud you for managing your “neat and tidy” complement.

HI,
I see nothing wrong in a forum like this for Vernon to voice a public opinion with a view to see what support there is for it.

quote:
The absolute wrong thing to do is publicly berate your hosts, calling their actions “criminal” and “shameful”. The fact that you don’t find these comments negative, again, explains a lot.

WHO said their actions were criminal and shameful?
I might be blind but I cannot find it.


or is this what you take " Express my extreme displesure " and "then it's criminal to have a heated topic locked up on you just because it may have off the main catagory" to mean?

phillip

Vernon is calling our host's actions criminal. Pretty clear.



Yes I did assume here he was referring to the moderators actions and in re-reading it I feel I was correct in doing so. But if you're going to debate the issue you can omit the word "shameful" (and criminal for that matter) and it makes his comments no less impertinent.

And what do you all hope to gain in supporting this sort of openness here? Enough people rallying behind Vernon, telling Steve that they are "extreemly displeased" with how he is running things? In hopes that what? He'll run his Cafe how all of you want? More likely he'll be saying to heck with all of you and there goes this perfect forum. Come on people.

I have to back up yackandjack here with an interesting point... it never fails that I find a place to help me expand my mind... and within hours I find someone who strives to argue and be negative.. and what a turn off to a great community. yakandjak are right.. the proper course of action is to privatly work out the difference.. not to spread the seed of negativity and ill will across the entire board... please... just move on, there are plenty of good topics... start a chatting!!

Above are 11 post this makes 12 and none of these post focus on the purpose of this site.

The NY remark was to make a point that I magically predicted a negative response. Amazing how that stuff works.

What has been accomplished here? Nothing. What has a beginner of magic learned here about magic? Nothing.

If you read anything about the business of magic, one thing that really stands out is what you or your assistants say about the people, the town, the food etc., while visiting that location. You the magician and your act is reflective on how you perform on and off the stage, by the whole company.

The lesson here for the beginners is that you are what you say and how you act.

Disagrement on what is good, best, another perspective is OK. Flaming or downright nastyness, or going in that direction, does nothing for the magician, the act or the Magic Cafe.

Just my opinion!

HI,
if you do a gig and a spectator comes up after the show when you are discussing it with a group of people and he says, I liked your show but I think that it could be even better if you ...... some other spectators then say oh yes I agree with that.
others say nothing prefering to think they have no right to comment as it is your show.

Do you consider this negative comment?

I think that this is a positive comment intended to help me improve my performance
who wants to just hear praise all the time without any constructive critism?

quote:
What has been accomplished here?

Several people have made positive points which they believe would help move forward an already good forum and help to make it even better

several others have negativly critised these comments because it does not fit in with thier concept of whats proper.

"It took an honest little boy to say the Emperor has no clothes"
phillip

Phillip I absolutely agree. What a perfect analogy. And it illustrates my point perfectly.

There is a difference between criticism and constructive criticism, hence the adjective preceeding the latter.

Foremost, constructive criticism, as in Phillips example, must be constructive. It must attempt to assist in overcoming the critical portion of the discussion. "It could be better if you..."

Second, constructive criticism is more effective when you lead with a positive, instead of a negative. Again quoting Phillips example,"I liked your show but I think it could have been better..." As opposed to," Your show bites. I think it could have been better..."

If your intent is truely to help your listener, you can not approach them with insolence and expect them to be receptive to your suggestion.

Now reread that first post and tell me if it's positive.

(I can't believe I'm debating this. )

+ + + + + + + + + + + +

Just wanted to add a positive post :)

Paul.

Good grief!
If ever a topic should be locked down, it's this one!
Almost everyone seems to be missing the point:
We are here as a privilege, not a right!
We don't pay for the board or anything involved with it; we are guests and, as such, should defer to the wishes of the host (or his agents).
Period.
There are enough other magic boards where mindless bickering runs rampant; please, don't extend it to this one.

cheers,
Peter Marucci
showtimecol@aol.com

I thought of locking this topic for grins...

I thought of locking this topic because it really is non productive. (just my opinion)

I think non productivity is why the original topic was locked.

Any how, some facts.

There is an explaination at the end of the topic that was locked. You might not like it, but there it is.

Vernon On Coins wrote, "Andy Leviss and Tom Cutts were major players in that discussion." I neither recall nor now see any posts in that topic by me.

While opinions of oposition are not forbidden, this topic really belongs in the "see the manager section" near the top of the page.

Several topics have been rekindled with equal ferver in a new section. People here really don't limit themselves to one section if that was your concern.

Lastly, we should all act with the graciousness and knowledge that we are all, including the staff, Steve's guests on his forum. His vision, his rules.

If you would like to affect change, honey may be more expedient.

Darn near all constructive opinions are valued here. I'm not sure this thread is as constructive as it could be.

Sincerely and, at this time in this case, pacifistically (100 points for new word score),

Tom Cutts

To Steve Brookes:
My sincere and humble apologies. Without a doubt, this is the finest forum I've ever been a part of, to the point where I neither contribute, nor visit any other. The wealth of information and advice on these pages is all one needs to improve oneself as an all around performer, hobbyist, professional, or semi-professional.

My initial post was a knee-jerk reaction and completely uncalled for.

Keep up the great work.

Now...would someone kindly shut this topic down.

And here's my apologies to Mr Vernon and all for taking this to such a degree.

And praise as well to Vernon for the strong finish. Well done.

O.K. Let's kill it now.