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Christopher Lyle Inner circle Dallas, Texas 5698 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-10-21 00:59, MrGreggy wrote: I AM VERY ANGRY when it comes to this subject! There is a negative perception that Magicians have no place in the entertainment world outside of the children's market and that all magic needs to be dumbed down for kids. I hate that! If we all keep doing Change Bags and Run Rabbit Run then Magicians will become nothing more than a bad punch line...which technically, we already are.
In Mystery,
Christopher Lyle Magician, Comic, Daredevil, and Balloon Twisting Genius For a Good Time...CLICK HERE! |
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Brett Sirrell Magician New user 77 Posts |
Looking at both you pictures, I can see that you are both right on this point. I can imagine that if mr Greggy was to put something dangerous in his show it wouldnt work as well and kids might well think, "if the clown did it then its silly and funny (hence possibly harmless) and we could have a go."
Chris I am imagining your show is less clown and more drama. I think the kids will go "wow that guy was super amazing dagerous etc we shouldnt do what he did, co it will hurt us" Although I get your point. I was doing a store promotion standing at the top of the stairs juggling and having fun. They has give away pens and I was doing silly stuff with them, up the nose trick etc etc. Everybody was "getting" the humour. Then some parent says "yeh that's sensible encouraging kids to stick stuff up thier nose and in their ears" After that point I was stuck between a rock and a hard place, yeah it was fun and funny but do I just leave it our now? Just cos one person mentioned this. My thoughts in the end were its up to her to educacate the children that the idoit was not a role model and the shouldnt copy him. but I stopped doing the gag!
Brett Sirrell Magician and entertainer
www.brettsirrell.co.uk |
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Christopher Lyle Inner circle Dallas, Texas 5698 Posts |
Agreed! I'm sure that MrGreggy couldn't pull off something dangerous and have it work out for him. You should only do what will work with your character. I wasn't saying that he should do material similar to my own...but I think it is safe for him to use eggs again.
But if you're like me and you have the personallity and attitude to pull off something a bit more OUT THERE, then DO IT! Don't be a slave to the stock kid show material from the magic shop. Think outside the box. What might play well in a night club may also play just as well in a school or bday party show. As for the pen up the nose bit... I do the pen up the nose bit at almost every table in my restaurants. I do it and then say "don't do that at home kids...do it at school!". By using the line, it does make it out to be a joke and softens the blow. Christopher
In Mystery,
Christopher Lyle Magician, Comic, Daredevil, and Balloon Twisting Genius For a Good Time...CLICK HERE! |
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revlovejoy Special user Pennsylvania 765 Posts |
I understand where you're coming from Chris. I pulled the flame book from my show a long time ago, but then it occurred to me - if a kid tries to reproduce this, all it means is he will open a book to see if fire will come out. No danger there.
I still use those razor blades to shave, that's how my Dad taught me. He's a barber and uses straight razors, so we still call the double blade a "safety razor." I keep them up where my kids couldn't get them. They are 3 and 6. If they start playing with a lighter, or razors, I have no one to blame but myself, since it's my job to control access to those things. More kids choke on hot dogs than anything else, especially a 260. But I let them have hot dogs. (Long term health concerns are another matter.) - I just make sure to keep a close eye on the little guy. And I cut up the hot dog. So I see where you are coming from. But I have to say in this thread, you've been pretty hard on Greggy there - I see your argument, no need to make it personal. I think you understand exactly what he meant by the egg thing, but you're again being kind of obtuse about it to get a shot in. He never said he removed eggs from his show due to the danger element. But you know that. Fight fair. |
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TonyB2009 Inner circle 5006 Posts |
I must say I'm with Christopher - we are too gentle with kids. I have a simple policy when people tell me to drop items from my act. I tell them to get a different performer.
I did a show once for a company summer barbecue - all adults. I was doing hypnosis. The company demanded my script beforehand to clear the jokes. I don't use a script, so that caused some problems. Then they insisted that every volunteer (even pick a card volunteers) had to sign a release before the event. On the day I was told that three people had signed the releases so for my two hour performance of mentalism and hypnotism I was to use these three people. Two of them hadn't shown up at the event. Thankfully I am Irish and we don't do rules. I ran through my normal show, told my jokes, and ignored the releases. I wasn't rebooked, but I wouldn't have accepted a rebooking from that company. I think magicians often lack balls. If you are confident that you have a good show, why compromise to accommodate the political correctness idiots? I have eaten a 260 at the start of every kids show for a decade, and never once have I had a child try to copy me. They are kids, not idiots. If you want to include danger in your show, go ahead and do it. A natural selection process will occur. Either your show is good and you will get booked, despite their reservations about your material, or your show is not good, and you won't get booked. But remember its your show, not their show. Don't compromise. Tony.
Check out Tony's new thriller Dead or Alive http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alive-Varrick-Bo......n+carson
http://www.PartyMagic.ie |
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billappleton Inner circle Los Gatos, California 1154 Posts |
I'm back into performing after many years, and I have small kids now. This has changed my point of view. Some kids magic acts strike me as inappropriate, creepy, or boring. adults already do lots of stuff kids can't do, they get that.
I'm not trying to convince them that I'm cooler than them, smarter than them, in control, etc. I'm trying to expand their imagination, and get them to really participate in the magic. my best trick is no match for the miracle that every kid is already. I don't think greg is arguing that kid shows should be dumbed down, quite the opposite. kids have enough things to be worried or concerned about, I just don't want to be one of them. so I steer clear of those props, I think they can form a barrier between the audience and magician. |
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Ed_Millis Inner circle Yuma, AZ 2292 Posts |
It sounds like there are two different approaches:
-- Put together "my" show and take it or leave it -- Put together a show based on what the customer does or doesn't want I think some who modify their show to suit the customer's desires aren't pansey - they're just doing good business. Yes, some customers are more demanding than others - do you want that gig or not? Some are more paranoid than others, and for every reason you can give to show them wrong, they can pull out statistics & anecdotes to show they are right - do you want that gig or not? Some performers are more cautious than others, because some customers won't just vent their angst and anxieties at you - they'll silently slip behind your back and do everything they can to ruin your reputation and even sue you. This may vary by the part of the world you live in, but there are jerks everywhere. Yes, there are jerks everywhere - and some of them want to hire performers for a decent rate. Do you want the gig or not? If you can make a decent living by weeding out all the jerks, or you do it for the art & enjoyment and don't care about the money, then pass on the gig. Life's too short to waste my time being angry at all the jerks out there who rub me wrong: I can either accommodate them for the short time of my show, or I can refuse to deal with them. "Never argue with an idiot - they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!" I know there is one place in my city where I was treated very rudely and basically told to take my issues about their bad service and go away! I have never been back there. I hate to be treated like that, and y'all proabably do too. So why are we even discussing doing that to _our_ customers when we don't like that kind of treatment when we are the customer? Ed |
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bsears Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 1040 Posts |
Here's a story: I did the Mickey Hades Finger Chopper in one of my restaurants last week on a teenage girl, and she freaked out pretty bad. She actually called me a "jerk" after the trick was over. And I thought, maybe she's right. Maybe I shouldn't put people through this, even if some really like it.
Then her parents called me today - she wants to have me perform at her 15th Birthday Party! So obviously I'm doing something right, and the chopper stays in! |
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Don Loyal user 215 Posts |
Mr. Lyle I agree with you!
1. If I do the torn and restored newspaper then a child will tear up Dad's Sunday paper! 2. If I do silk to egg then a child will use Mom's eggs she will cook a cake with! 3. If I do ball manipulation then a child will take some ornaments on a table and use and break or loose them! 4. If I produce flower bouquets then the child will uproot Mom's flowers in the flower bed that she spent all year growing! 5. If I produce coins the child will break, raid his sibblings piggy banks of its savings maybe even swallow them! See where I'm going with this!! Anything we do technically can be construed in this manner that the children will copy you. This is ***** !! Don |
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TommyJ Inner circle Foxboro, MA 1750 Posts |
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We can all use the dangerous crap in our shows!!!!!! I use a disecto. I use a guillotine and swords thru the neck.
Nobody is saying to take these out of our shows. All a couple of people are saying here is they SHOULDN'T be used in an IN-HOUSE school assembly shows where everything now days is so politically correct. Like Mr. Gregory says, there are other alternatives. He is saying an EGG can give that "Element of Suspense" and danger. Or maybe something like the Viper etc. All you magicians out there that use guillotines, eat fire etc in an in-house school assembly, all I can say is, I'M GLAD YOU'RE NOT IN MY AREA to give us magicians a bad rap in the school system.
"Keep the Kids Laughing!"
https://www.tommyjamesmagic.com/store |
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TonyB2009 Inner circle 5006 Posts |
Ed said there are two approaches; put together a show and tell them to take it or leave it; or put together a show based on what the market wants. He said the latter approach makes business sense. He is right.
But I am not a business man. I am an artist. So I am quite willing to lose gigs rather than do shows I feel are not good shows, or are not the sort of shows I feel comfortable doing. I will not have teachers telling me to drop effects, or parents telling me that they want a different emphasis in the show. The funny thing is, in fifteen years I have done very well. I have made good money and am still busy despite the recession. So perhaps there is something to be said for the non-business model as well. Tony.
Check out Tony's new thriller Dead or Alive http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alive-Varrick-Bo......n+carson
http://www.PartyMagic.ie |
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TommyJ Inner circle Foxboro, MA 1750 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-10-21 21:32, TonyB2009 wrote: I guess you're right Tony. There are two ways to approach. I used to have the attitude you have about 10 years ago: Who are THEY to tell me what I can and can't do in my shows. Magic is supposed to have that "Element of Danger" . . . that's what we do! I had fire in my show, my guillotine etc. I used to think that way but I guess where we differ is that I DON'T want to loose gigs because of it. I make my sole living from performing and maybe you do to and I hope you do, because we have the best job in the world and I absolutely LOVE what I do and I have fun. I feel bad for the people that actually have to work for a living and my wife is jealous that I make more than her, and she has a great job! The reason I changed my attitude and changed my act for in-house assemblies is I got reprimanded too much! lol I used to produce my bunny from the Super Pan WITH fire. I got questioned many times by educators about my decision to use fire in a school setting AND my Disecto. My attitude was "that's what magicians do, we use fire and chop body parts." And then when the Station Night Club fire happened, fire was an absolute no-no in just about any show in this area. I already mentioned I got asked NOT to use Kovari's Passing Water in the second school assembly for that day due to the drill. Heck, I even got asked NOT to use the word DUMB in an assembly. I was doing a Health for Life Magic Show, and in the part where cigarettes came up I said smoking is DUMB. The Principal came up to me after and told me that they don't allow the students to say the word DUMB in school and asked if I would change it the next show and say " Smoking is Foolish" and, I agreed with her and thanked her for helping me come up with something a little more appropriate for that sentence. So in this area, I want to be known as THE school show performer that people can rely on. They say "Live and Learn" and I HAVE learned. I hated taking those things out of my school programs because I LIKED them. But I don't want to loose one gig. Call me greedy, but like I said, I love performing.
"Keep the Kids Laughing!"
https://www.tommyjamesmagic.com/store |
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Christopher Lyle Inner circle Dallas, Texas 5698 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-10-21 15:13, TommyJ wrote: This is my point TommyJ...it's OK to perform materail like this in schools...as long as you provide the school during the booking process FULL disclosure about what your show contains, then all is well. Be lucky that there arn't any guys like me in your area as we could very well draw all of your business away! Perhaps not tho'...I will agree that differnt parts of the country are different in regards to this, but I guess people out here in Dallas just arn't as UP TIGHT as they are in other parts of the USA. Heck...people drive around out here with Rifle's on full display on their trucks. We're just not as sensative about stuff like that out here. There are several schools that I perform for every year here in Dallas and they LOVE the element of danger b/c the spin that I put on it is funny, jovial, and screamingly funny! I have a PRE-SHOW announcment that says that there are elements of the show that are dangerous and should never be tried by anyone (young or old) at home. I also bring it up before my final routine of the show announcing that I'm a trained professional idiot and that what I do should never be tried by anyone! Have I ever been told NOT to do certain things? Sure I have...and I turned down the gig. I guess you could say that (like Tommy) I'm not a business man...I'm an artist. When people book me...they BOOK MY ACT! I do not remove certain things from my act b/c people might find them offensive. If the caller tells me that they want me to remove such and such from my show, I tell that they would most likely be happier with another performer...and then I refer them out to other entertainers that do a "square to the peg" show. Again...I do not waste my money on advertising to the kid show market. Between all of my Restaurant work and my Corporate Bookings, I do not need to perform for schools or children's bday parties to stay busy. I get a lot of calls for these types of shows from my Restaurant Work. People call up and they either book me or they don't. If they don't, 99% of the time is due to my fee being too high for that type of show. Again (as I said in my original post), I have purposely priced myself out of that market b/c it's not my target demograpic...but if they want me then they're going to pay for me...plain and simple. You would never expect to buy a Lexus for the price of a Civic...so there ya go. It's RARE when I get someone saying that they don't want to book me b/c of my material. It happens and I'm fine with that. I will always choose to keep the integretiy of my show intact then conform to what others feel is appropriate. Trying to swing this thing back on point here...if you want to do a Head Chopper in your show (or ANYTHING) then DO IT! Don't let others dictate to you how to run your business. Christopher
In Mystery,
Christopher Lyle Magician, Comic, Daredevil, and Balloon Twisting Genius For a Good Time...CLICK HERE! |
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TommyJ Inner circle Foxboro, MA 1750 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-10-22 10:40, Christopher Lyle wrote: I know, I've heard about you guys down there! lol It sickens me that schools around here want everything "perfect." But it is not a perfect world.
"Keep the Kids Laughing!"
https://www.tommyjamesmagic.com/store |
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Christopher Lyle Inner circle Dallas, Texas 5698 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-10-22 11:00, TommyJ wrote: Agreed!
In Mystery,
Christopher Lyle Magician, Comic, Daredevil, and Balloon Twisting Genius For a Good Time...CLICK HERE! |
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kingsillusions New user San Diego, CA 20 Posts |
I use the French Arm Chopper, the French Guillotine, Sword Through Neck, Murder, Inc., etc. for the older kids, upon client approval.
I like the business approach of custom catering my repertoire to the audience and still preserving my sanity by turning down the occasional "rude person".
Matthew King
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themagiciansapprentice Inner circle Essex, UK 1381 Posts |
KingsIllusions,
I'm the same. I do Arm Chopper, Sword through Neck or rope through girl if the client wants it. For younger age ranges I did, this year in Kuwait and Cambodia, introduce a colourful illusion instead of the rope through. Now I'm back in Europe the kids seem to want the danger tricks more often than not. I only do one in a show and always have a story with it based on pirates; or I use a tug-of-war game for the rope through.
Have wand will travel! Performing children's magic in the UK for Winter 2014 and Spring 2015.
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JamesinLA Inner circle Los Angeles 3400 Posts |
What type/makes of guillotine and arm choppers do you guys prefer?
Jim
Oh, my friend we're older but no wiser, for in our hearts the dreams are still the same...
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TommyJ Inner circle Foxboro, MA 1750 Posts |
I have Disecto from Supreme and my head chopper is the Elite head chopper. I bought it from Tilford but it wasn't manufactured by him . . I forget who made it but it is sweet and very deceptive.
"Keep the Kids Laughing!"
https://www.tommyjamesmagic.com/store |
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