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Mick Ayres Special user Hilton Head Island 998 Posts |
I certainly do believe in miracles. In fact, I walk both of 'em to their bus-stop every morning.
THE FIVE OBLIGATIONS OF CONJURING: Study. Practice. Script. Rehearse. Perform. Drop one and you're done.
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Keith Raygor Special user Naples, FL 968 Posts |
Beautiful, Mick. Reminds me to be appreciative and humble.
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-11-07 09:19, Keith Raygor wrote: I can hold my breath for no more than about a minute. Some can hold their breath for 2 minutes. And there are some that can hold their breath for 4, 5, or even more minutes. Some people from warmer climates would not be able to tolerate (and may even succumb) to conditions that people in the coldest climates have become accustomed to living in. Some people who are allergic to certain foods can die from eating them, while others show no ill effects. My point is that there is a large variance in what humans can tolerate, and, recover from. Given the billions of humans who have walked this planet, and the millions of those who have had a medical emergency, it is statistically likely that a few stories will emerge of some who have recovered from a 10-15 minute absence of a heartbeat. And for purely no other reason than their particular biological\genetic makeup (and the prevailing conditions) were favorable. I see no reason to invoke a "miracle" where none is required. Let's reverse the situation and consider cases where perfectly normal, healthy, and relatively young people suddenly collapse and die (I personally know of TWO such cases - very sad). Do we say this was a miracle in the sense that there was an intentional supernatural intervention as the cause? No. But because the former situation plays to our positive emotions and we like to feel that "somebody" is looking out for us, we seize the opportunity to bolster our "faith." All that aside, as I said, it is a great story and I'm glad it had a happy ending. And I too, am open to other possibilities in this complex universe populated with complex living machines. Ron :)
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-11-07 09:19, Keith Raygor wrote: But do we know for a fact that he was without heartbeat or oxygen for 10 -15 minutes? Who was keeping time? In a panic situation it could have seemed to be a long period of time but in reality it could have only bee seven or eight minutes. His heart nor breathing may not have completely stopped either but he might have been in a catatonic state. there are just too many variables and unknowns to deem this a miraculous event
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Keith Raygor Special user Naples, FL 968 Posts |
I read reports of people being able to hold their breath for 10 minutes - it is not unheard of. But that was in a functioning, heart-beating body, with planning, and 'stored' oxygen, not a sudden cardiac arrest.
The estimates of time were based on the time of the two 911 calls, which we don't know how long after the cardiac arrest they came, but she banged on several doors before getting someone. And then the AED that the deputy hooked up to his body automatically recorded the time of that event and the subsequent CPR which did finally revive him. I learned this from the deputy. But I suppose the next questions could be - how do we know that the AED was accurate, etc.? But you're right, it could only have been 7 or 8 minutes. But that's just a guess from someone that wasn't there. So far, I'm more inclined to go by what I was told by others. The rest of your guessing about catatonic states takes a backseat to the deputy's report at the scene, in my mind. He reported no pulse or breathing. And the hospital reported no brain activity upon arrival. I imagine I could search for variables and unknowns as well, but as I said, I'm already comfortable with the things the doctors and participants have said. The truth is that you may be right, Payne, and I may be wrong. I don't have all the answers. But at this juncture, I haven't found a better reason to doubt the story. I hope this is not seen as arguing the points, as I do see why you're asking the questions, and am prone to questions myself. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Is it a miracle before the Pope says so?
BTW, is miracle a (tm) or (sm) item?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts |
Those involved will go to church and use the story as proof of miracles. Any other explanations don't matter because they don't involve their imaginary friend God.
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-11-07 14:18, Micheal Leath wrote: And for the untold thousands of others who died on that day around the world their imaginary freind didn't care enough to go out of its way to save them. Is there a quota on miracles?
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-11-07 15:19, Payne wrote: Don't you know? It's just his "mysterious ways." |
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doubletime New user 49 Posts |
Thought provoking. thank you.
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
Many events will occur throughout a lifetime. Some of those events will seem extraordinary and mysterious. If we don't know the cause of those events, then the most we can say is that we simply don't know the cause. To assume that we DO know the cause is misguided.
Another perspective; surely there are people who survive dramatic brushes with death by pure luck alone - no supernatural involvement occured. How would one distinguish those "chance" events from the true "miraculous" events? We DO know that chance events, even unlikely ones, do happen. We have NO unambiguous proof that a miracle creator intervenes in human affairs. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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MagiClyde Special user Columbus, Ohio 871 Posts |
Payne said:
Quote:
Is there a quota on miracles? Apparently there is, otherwise they wouldn't be miracles, but everyday occurrences. Personally, I think the term itself is used far too frequently. As for me, I find myself sitting on the fencepost, because there have been a lot of crazy things that are documented fact. The human body can do some pretty amazing things, given a chance.
Magic! The quicker picker-upper!
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Dreadnought Special user Athens, Georgia 836 Posts |
I believe.
Peace and Godspeed
Peace
"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..." Scott Would you do anything for the person you love? |
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Bruce Meyers New user 22 Posts |
To what purpose are miracles?
Aka`aka Loko I Ka Ika A Ke Aloha
[The secrets within me are seen through Aloha] |
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Irfaan Kahan Veteran user 346 Posts |
I believe - despite the fact that I have never read or seen or experienced a miraculous event.
I just believe - that makes life more fun.
I'm a Magician playing the part of an Actor
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PSYSHADOW Regular user England 196 Posts |
Sure I believe in miracles.
I also believe in Santa Clause and the Tooth-Fairey! I also believe that all those I've lent money to and helped in the past will one day pay me back and present my wife with a box of chocolates! Hmmm, maybe that last part would be just too much of a miracle.
Peace in the World - or - the World in Pieces
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Ray Tupper. Special user NG16. 749 Posts |
Do I believe in miracles?..No!
I lost all faith in them when Smokey Robinson started using backing tracks. Ray.
What do we want?
A cure for tourettes! When do we want it? C*nt! |
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John Tudor Loyal user Columbia, SC 209 Posts |
Yes, definately believe in miracles.
"Ars longa, vita brevis." (Life is short, the art so long to learn) -Hippocrates
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kcg5 Inner circle who wants four fried chickens and a coke 1868 Posts |
No
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!
"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
I don't know what I believe. Not at all. I think and think and think some more, and at the end of the day I realize that I'm not smart enough to answer a question like whether miracles exist.
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