John,

I will try my best to respond to your question. Hope I succeed. Let me know.

You wrote: ...if you have your Mak magic folding nightclub table with prof. nightmare, linking rings, sponge balls, crystal silk cylinder, thumb tip and a couple of silk and coloring book sitting next to you doorway and you got out to a Bday party with it for a half hour for 225$ HOW can you justify taking the same show(Mak magic folding nightclub table with prof. nightmare, linking rings, sponge balls, crystal silk cylinder, thumb tip and a couple of silk and coloring book )out at Christmas fill in the blank) and charge 400$?

My answer is twofold:

A)Perceived Value.
For Corporate kid shows and baptisms I am hired to entertain "everyone", not just the kids (in the minds of the parents that hired me). I charge more to charge more to entertain people. And the adults come away with a feeling that it was a smart idea of the parents to hire an entertainer that entertain us too. That's added value and worth something extra (with or without the lights --and I always bring a sound system to home parties and to reception hall venues).
And, quite frankly, I charge the amount that I would "like" to charge in the home, but as Blair points out, the budget for home birthday parties in Monteal is not nearly as large as allotted for corporate parties and baptism/family events where larger groups will be entertained. Which brings me to my second point...

B) Actual value. I honestly work harder to ensure that the adults in the room are just as engaged and entertained as the kids. And the clients that pay this fee know they are getting their money's worth. I also spend extra tiem writing up contracts, corresponding via email with the client --more than I do for a home party. My time, in my mind, is worth additional money.

Oh,m and there is a "C"... different markets... but Blair and Donald have already put this into perspective... Thanks!
++++++++++++++++++++++

You also wrote: ... What would you think if the plumber showed up to fix your drain and charged you 300$ because you live in Westmount yet only charged your buddy 85$ down the street in NDG for the same repair.

You have a point. They are not (in my mind) different markets.

I do not charge Westmount parents more than I would charge neighboring parents living in the NDG just because they "may" have disposable income.

But if a plumber fixes faucets in a commercial (corporate establishment) you can be sure they will charge more than for a private home, and the corporate client expects it, will budget for it, and will rarely hire the "cheaper" plumber (Cheap is not perceived as better... they could be (better) BUT WHY RISK IT.

If we start talking adult corporate shows and private parties for adults (in their home), I believe you might jump out of your socks , John, if I told you what I charge --and the client is very satisfied.

I do believe that most magicians I know in my area (not all, of course) undercharge drastically for their adult gigs ... but that's for another thread at some other time.

Hope I've helped to clarify , a bit my thoughts and approach on this subject

Frankly, I would be very happy if my competitors raised their prices to truly be more competitive, and to educate the buyers to the fact that the time we invest into learning our craft and into our equipment, conducting ourselves professionally, etc.,, is worth a higher fee than what had previously been the norm. Hope this makes sense. It's late. I am tired, I am rambling a bit and my logic is not bulletproof... go easy.

Jonathan

Sorry for all the typos above. In section"A", I meant to say:

I charge more to entertain more people. And the adults come away with a feeling that it was a smart idea of the parents to hire a capable entertainer that could entertain as well as the kids."

Enough said.

Sleep tight!

Jonathan

Thanks Jonathan I agree with you 100%. I don't know how I got hihgjacked by responding to the original question of why a customer would question different prices for the same service. I thought my response was well thought out and helpfull. I guess the Blair factor interveened with his twisting of facts and spreading of misinformation. I can't understand from my posts how it appears that I charge that same for the same show in ALL markets, perhaps Blair knows, he seem to have a crystal ball, or it just a lack of confidence that he needs to belittle others to make himself seem all important???? If ANYONE is interested in my fee structure PM me and I'll be happy to discuss it with you. You'll see that my fees and Blair's are almost identical!!!

Thanks.

John

Glad if this thread is back on track.

Unfortunately, John, there is lots of wiggle room for misunderstandings here on the Café. Pricing and fee structures are delicate issues and beyond general questions about strategy,philospphy and approach (towards fee-setting), PMs are likely (as you suggest)the most effective way to communicate. This being said, I (personally) believe that sacarsim towards fellow magicians on the Café's many great threads detract from the true goal of this great site.

Magicians helping magicians... that's what it is all about. Anything less is PM material or best left unsaid.... IMHO.

Of course more discussion in-line with the topic at haqnd is always welcome, and often enlightening.

Wishing everyone that has commented on and read through this thread a very (very) good day.

Jonathan

Thanks Jonathan. As we say on the farm "Watch out for the horse poop!!"

Have a great day(and I mean that)

John

Just I thought I would keep you posted on the outcome of the lady who questioned my fee for the same show that I did for someone 6 months ago. I quoted this lady £20 more than a lady I did a show for 6 months ago. I told her that my fee had gone up, and she questioned why it had gone up so much during this time. After explaining the situation to her she said that she would still go ahead with the booking.

I had a text from her today saying that she wanted to cancel the booking, had not got the guts to talk to me. I must admit I was not looking forward to doing her show anyway and I’m glad show did cancel it. I sent her text her back saying that was fair enough if she was not happy with my price.

Judging from some of the replies I have had, some of you might be saying that it serves me right. In all truth looking back at my dairy I have charged nearly everyone in that same area around £10 less than I quoted her, except for that one occasion back in June when the client must have caught me in a generous mood.

After 25 years of performing this has never happened to me before, and my pricing structure is all in my head. So when anyone phones for a price I quote him or her accordingly. I don’t want to go into details with regard to my pricing structure, because it seems everyone as different opinions on this subject, so I will not bore you with the details.

What I will say is that I try to be fair to everyone and do not overcharge clients intentionally. All potential clients react in different ways to fees. Some are looking for the cheapest, not really interested in what is offered. Some don’t mind what they pay within reason as long as you offer first class entertainment, and some clients will try and haggle about the price. I had a someone book me today and when I told him my fee, he was quite shocked that I appeared to be so cheap and snapped my hand off, so you can’t win.

You never stop learning in this business and I will be aware of this situation in future, but it will probably never happen again.

When I look generally at our fees and the first class entertainment that most of us offer, I think that the clients are getting value for money. The clients only see the show and don’t consider the hard work and time to put a good show together. Then there’s our travelling time and having to control unruly children in some instances, and unruly adults who can’t stop chatting at the back of the room during the show. Entertaining the children is one thing, but there are lots of other things we have to take control of during a party. I also believe you have to understand a little about child psychology to be a good children’s entertainer. Sorry I am going off the fees subject now, maybe that’s another debate for some other time.

Thanks for all you thoughts

Kris Krendo

I think that’s the bottom line here. It seems there are as many pricing structures as there are café members.

For some reason I find myself at odds with much of the conventional wisdom shared here at the café. For example, I post most of my prices on my web site and do not base my price according to my potential client’s needs (or ability to pay, etc.). I have never taken a deposit nor do I send out contract. All things that smart businessmen swear are essential to being successful.

I break all of these rules and can count the number of times on one hand that I’ve had a cancellation or have failed to be paid, or have had an unhappy customer in general.

Kris, if this is the only time this has happed to you in 25 years, I think you pricing structure is working for you just fine. I wouldn’t worry about it too much, but it is true there is always something to learn. When you’re ready to debate child psychology and such, please feel free to post here at the café.

First,,,,
If the client wants a lower fee and it is only 20 pounds/dollars, why not give it to the client?

I can count many times when a client phones and says I am about $100 or $500 ish out of their budget (depending on what type of show) and would I consider less... OF COURSE... Depending on many factors...

I believe there needs to be a balance between money and entertaining....

There have been occasions when I have given in to a client and done their show for a few pounds less, I have no problem with that. Unfortunately I did not like this particular clients attitude in finding out what I charged another client, and then having the cheek to phone me and ask for the same price I charged 6 months ago. When she also asked why my prices had gone up so much, I then thought what the hell as it got to do with you, I don’t have to justify my prices rises to you.. At that point I didn’t even want to do the show for her anyway. If this lady had come across in a more reasonable manner then I might have done her show for £10 less.

Kris Krendo

These kind of questions you will always get. and you should be prepared for it. get some answers ready. I would not compare to mcdonalds, or other. Magic might be your profession. Perhaps you have recently improved your skills by working very hard. you made some investments. For this the quality of your show is continiously getting better, and also your price is according. This is what should hear and understand. You might want to give a reduction for a certain reason. Than it has to be clear to the client why.
For example: I do give a discount on wednesday afternoon or during school hours. because than I will almost never get a corporate event. If the want a weekend or certain holiday it will be full price...this also guarabtees them that I will not cancel the party if I find a better job later the same day.

Michael Ammar sells a very insightful audio called Negotiating Fees. He produced it many years ago but his advice and strategies are time tested and still hold true.

As Papillon wisely points out, if the client has a limited budget, you can still lower your price to meet their maximum limit, but in return you must take something of (perceived) value away. Explain this to the clietn. They will understand and appreciate the logic and your willingness to fit within their budget. It is also possible that they will suddenly find the extra dollars to secure your "deluxe" show (if that is what they desire.

Also, it's good to remember that if you don't ask, you don't get *ie. higher fees). Those who have a quality show, and are afraid to ask the price they feel they deserve (based on perceived market value in the geo region you live in) should simply try asking their desired fee (with serene confidence)... The results may surprise *and please) you!

In any case, for those not familiar with some of the classic gambits of negotiations in order to secure higher fees, Michael Ammar's audio on Negotiating fees would be well worth the price to purchase.

The price, however, is rock-bottom low and is non-negotiable!

Jonathan

My fee's vary depending on what time of year it is as well

around Halloween my prices go up.. supply and demand..

not by a major amount but enough to keep me booked and still make a little extra..
like $15 more per hour

also I run coupons through Google business listings and a bunch of things like that..

this way if I am asked I mention all these things that can flux the price by up to $50 pre hour

only been questioned twice but after I go over all that I do with specials and such they ask if I have any specials.. if I do I say so and tell them where to grab the code so they will know the next time they book me and then give them the discount..

I also have a returning client fridge magnet that I stamp and when its full I give a free party.. (5 parties = 1 free one)

so far only given away 1 free party (4 years of workin with it)

I'm absolutely new to this business (don't even have my business license yet!), so my thoughts might not be applicable - if so, feel free to tell me.

I can't see that a magic show is comparable to a "solid" product - car, hamburger, whatever. It's an individual experience. Granted, it may look like exactly the same show, but the experience the customer gets - and the experience I have to go through to give them that show - might be significantly different.

So the plumber replaces your faucet for $50, but charges me $75. There could well be differences in the plumbing that made it more difficult for him at your place - things he can't explain to you because all you see is "pipe" and "faucet", and you don't comprehend what he is seeing and having to deal with.

So the magician charged your friend $100 and you get a "deal" for $125. There might be "circumstances" involved that mean something only to a business person, and the customer won't "get". Get a meal at a restaraunt - if you order it "special", you may get charged more, even if _you_ believe it should be a "standard meal".

So maybe the answer is to try to set a price high enough to cover most "special circumstances", and perhaps adjust down as you are so inclined?

Ed