I certainly never said anything about entertainment mattering at all, though many do. For me is not a matter of 'fooling people'. Rather is the creation of a mental and emotional dilemma that leads them to "magic" as the cause because you have carefully eliminated the alternatives. Creating puzzled and dazzling them with skill might be entertaining, but it is not magic. Just fooling people isn't magic either. A Shell Game fools a lot of people but is not magic.

There is a saying becoming popular on the Café' -- "magic is the message." I have used magic in sales presentaions and the classroom in which 'entertainment' was not essential -- and neither wa s'fooling' them. Magic offered an example that what they considered impossible may not be so -- there for there is hope out of their plight.

Not magic! This is as magical as it gets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1hEDda_rH4

I wish that I could find someone -- but no one local is interested. There are a couple of online magicians who might be, but it may be difficult to teach and mentor over the Internet -- or by video.

I agree with your last statement -- any video demonstration is at best an indication of what an effect might be like face-to-face. If a viewer can see the magic potential I am pleased.

Based on the feedback received so far I am not inclined to shoot any videos at all. Photos, yes. Illustrations of key hand positions, yes. Training videos for key sequences, possibly. A complete, perfect video of the entire routine -- nope.

I can throw 5 (or even 6) balls in the air, but if I don't catch them its not juggling.

Magic that doesn't fool isn't magic.

On a different note, I'd love to have a go at the routine if you'd like? Whilst the video wasn't that great, I think there are definitely a few good ideas in there mate.

Ah, the pundits have prevailed!

A guy having some fun, feeling good, wanting to share the joy.

But Goodwill To Men is over now- the tree thrown in the gutter days ago...

Magicians helping magicians... what a crock!

It's hard to help someone when they won't accept it. A good many on here post videos of themselves performing or giving a demonstration of a mover there working on. When help is offered on how to improve or bad comments are given they get butt hurt and then refuse to take anyone's help or advise. It doesn't just happen here it happens on You Tube and other sites as well.

If you post a video you are going to have to learn to not only take the good comments but the bad as well. "If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen" as the saying goes.

The ones that said they liked Funs vid are the ones that no matter what say good job even if it wasn't. That is a fact. Not many on here are willing nor have the guts to say "Enough with the butt kissing. If there is a video on here that needs work or isn't good at all then the person needs to be told. Saying something is good when it obviously isn't is not helping. It's hurting both the person that posted the video and magic in general.

If you are going to post videos no matter who you are, you're skill level, physical limitations be open to critique both good and bad learn from the bad points that are pointed out. Consider the advice that is given. If you can't do that well don't post a vid.

just in case it got overlooked.

"The ones that said they liked Funs vid are the ones that no matter what say good job even if it wasn't."

now there's a value judgement that somehow contradicts all the other views you express. Niether Mb or Mandarin have a history of 'lick-spittle' praise. Several others were being sarcastic. I relish criticism -- just wish it was about the sleights and not the performance. I don't like the Vid -- but think everyone can learn something from the approaches demonstrated. So, telling me you don't like the vid has no value, nor does saying it isn't magical -- of course not, it's a vid! I do enjoy specifics --and you have given some, but nothing is gained by putting down the viewpoint of others.

Oh yes they do.

How can what I said be contrary to anything I have said on that subject? It's not. Now if I had said a vid was good when I knew *** well it wasn't well then sure that would be a contrary statement I had made here. But I don't do that nor will I.

I had said the Candy kiss part was ok. I think it could be made to work. so therefore I did say something that wasn't that bad about the vid.

The holding out of the last kiss was the real problem with that part tho. I think it could work if a body turn to left were made so there is cover for the -----

The other actions for the flying kisses need work too but that was the spot that stood out the most to me.

OK - I watched the video once, easily saw the "Flop", didn't catch the so-called Belly Holdout at all - that did look pretty good! - and when done I too thought, "That was nice, but not especially convincing".

Then after reading all the subsequent posts right up to now I watched it a few more times. I must admit that IF someone were standing in front of Ken watching the routine, the Flop would not be so easily noticed. As long as the misdirection and timing were just right. And both may very well have been perfect; but since we are watching a video with the camera focused directly on his hands of course the move was extremely obvious! As magicians even if many here were watching in person we probably would not have been fooled anyway, but that's because we as magicians watch performances entirely different than non-magician spectators. Non-magicians, IMO, would likely be fooled by the Flop IF the misdirection was done well. Heck, I watch cups and ball routines on You Tube and catch all the final loads as clear as day, even from the best; of course that is exactly what I am watching for because I want to improve my own! But spectators obviously never see the loads, else who would be so amazed at Michael Ammar's cups routine?

C'mon folks! A video camera pointing right at Ken's hands and we point and laugh because we can see the Flop so clearly? I am currently reading Lewis Ganson's book "The Magic of Slydini" and the foreword by Tony Slydini is all about misdirection and timing. Slydini said, "A word about timing; although—like misdirection—it cannot be divorced from performance. As Magic cannot be brought about without misdirection, it cannot be done without timing. You can vanish an object or produce it, using only misdirection. You can accomplish the same end with proper timing alone. But, it is only when you combine misdirection and timing that you achieve a true illusion; a really magical effect." Slydini's own magic relied so heavily on misdirection and timing; a recent post complained about a Slydini routine being lame because the lapping was so apparent. Of course it is -- to magicians watching a video, not subject at all to Tony's amazing misdirection, as the spectators were!

I do believe Ken that this routine relies heavily on that exactly: misdirection and timing. And that the routine may be much more magical to spectators with misdirection. Maybe some should consider that.

Thanks Ken.

Jim

What I'm going to say here I'm afraid won't come out as it should but those that really understand what I'm trying to point out will get it those that don't know won't.

The old thought of Magicians see things a non magician would not see is a lie. We all know it even though some still try to use that as an excuse for shoddy technique. The fact of the matter is. If a magician sees something amiss so will a layperson. There is no difference between how a magician sees and what a layman will see. That is an old wives tale that magicians need to drop here and now.

Yes a video will pick up somethings that in the real world living breathing people will not catch. But by the same token that also can take us back to the above of 'only a magician will see b.s." Somethings no matter what will be seen and exposed live or on vid. This flop is one of those things. Funs even said it's not something that fools he tried to sugar coat that but it didn't work.

Comparing this with something from Slydini is ridiculous. Yes on vid you could catch some of Tony's lapping but there is a difference there. You don't really see him lap a coin or the napkin. Yes you see his hand go back to the edge of the table or at times drop to his lap but you don't really see the object drop there. If one did not know about lapping it would not really mean they would pick up on what was going on as there isn't a good clue as to what is. But when you see something tossed from one hand to another and the tossing hand is shown empty as in " look it vanished from here and ta da! comes back unexpectedly over to this hand is a stretch no one is going to believe.

Yes with Slydini we know what to look for in the lapping dept but that's the big difference too. again there is no visible dropping of the item into the lap. Yes a layman is going to pick up on that if they really watch it a few times on vid. But there not really going to catch on in one viewing. With watching Slydini live the misdirection was the key to the spectators being fooled. But if he had done something like the flop. There is no misdirection that Tony could have pulled off that would have covered that. Tony understood that and that is why you never saw him do anything like that.

One more thing to clear up if it even needs to be.

My comment of some saying a video is good when it is not is not just pertaining to this thread. It pertains to the Café over all. One sees it all the time on here. a video is posted and everyone gushes over it and falls all over themselves giving praise when in very good majority of the time, that praise is not even deserved. It happens day in and day out on here. Not many are truthful when giving opinions of videos on the Café.

It didn't. So, my other nuts are shells?

Very magical, AND looks good on video!

P.S. I know how he does it. There's a trick to it. He cheats.

Dear RD -- your saying "Funs even said it's not something that fools he tried to sugar coat that but it didn't work."

is equivocation run rampant. I stated that the purpose of magic is not to fool anyone, that the creation of a sense of magic is based on forming a dilemma in their minds for which magic is an alternative explanation. No sugar coating -- just experienced fact.

Now, I have used the 'Flop' more than 4,000 times in one-on-one presentations -- and since our eyes were locked in mirth or story they never knew anything had happened at all until the object was revealed in the other hand. Most did not even know that I was a magician, but when they realized that I could make an object magcially jump from one place to another our conversation took on a different level of trust.

Thanks Jim -- not for the post, but for understanding what makes magic work

The shell game does not fool me, nor seem magical to me. I can applaud his skill, and acknowledge that with the right presentation such sleights might seem magic to some observers. But if the purpose is either to cheat/con, or to simply demonstarte skill, it is not magic to me. I might even be fooled some times -- still ins't magic to me.

I presented some effect that would appear as magic to me if properly done. Those who wish to explore such moves will contact me. Those who do not, will not. All of your comments serve to help me decide whether to shoot more videos or not.

The greatest help is learning that such moved do not seem magical to some, while shell cons would. I will rewrite some of my eBooks to reflect this bias.

Please, let's return to the open, clean and clear routine itself.

I wonder if this Candy Across would be more convincing if the candy moved (invisible for the spectators) from the left to the right (RH to LH) instead of from right to left.
Another question: would the use of sound (coins, nuts) be an advantage?

The Sleights work either direction -- I just drop more things going the other way. I have similar routines using coins, both no-gaff, shells and T.U.C. -- all involving some Sway Moves, though some are different than the ones used here. One routine called "Jingle" uses the coin clink as a misdirection ploy -- I move the Jingle and the coins follow.

I like stones, nuts and candy because they are 'found objects' and therefore less suspect, and in the complete routine the objects go both directions. PM me if you want more info.

Interesting thought about the direction making a difference. Do you have some expereince that it might be a factor?

Nice country song out now and you know those simple-enough songs are always about life and truth. The hook on this one goes, "God is great, beer is good and people are crazy." I don't know but that sorta sums it all up more-or-less for me.

Anyway here, I like funsways work, it's innovative, creative and just smart stuff, even quite intellectual at times.

I try to look for what's good about a thing over any such negative critiques. If something is terribly amiss I would prefer to contact a person via PM here, it's easy enough to do. Certainly we are all here to take part in the forum of magic and would like the thoughts of others but mean-spirited stuff is nothing but what it appears to be, what it makes people feel that it is. funsway's work is intelligent and well-thought out. That some of the moves may be visible in demo vids is perhaps throwing the baby out with the bath water. Hope people check his work out for themselves as to how it plays in real life to specs in their own hands.

And I've been following the discussion a bit here as to what laymen see, and I don't know but I know they don't see what you don't want them to see, especially if you're doing the work well. Heck if you're doing it pretty good, even magicians won't see it. I've stood beside the great Mickey Silver doing his thing where everyone there was pretty much a magician and they could not "see" anything but magic and any laymen there were just ducks in the water, they simply thought he was God. Not only that, but I think he mentioned to me later that he slipped a few times and I don't remember not one of them in the room remembering a slip even if they saw it. So if they saw it and don't remember it, why is it even and issue? Now all these magicians in the room were not necessarily Mickey Silver fans as you know jealousy rears its ugly head in all rooms of ability and accomplishment, so eagle eyes were anxious but they got nothing...nothing but magic they couldn't really explain.

Similarly along those lines, I can show you things right up close and you will not see anything but what I show you when I show it to you. And I can see it but you won't as laymen or magician and I've done it up close for both. And sometimes mugging for a camera can throw you off a bit as you try to keep everything in that little box and it can be hard to hide things that would normally not be perceived sometimes...I've been there too. So I don't know but I'm just sayin'.

funsway is showing a method that works and people would be well-served to learn what they can from it and from such a learned mind in the art. I am very appreciative of him and his work and recommend it without the slightest reservation. There's important stuff in there that touches upon many dynamics in magic.

Keep up the great work funsway. Much respect.

Oh and here's that song, pretty cool. And the comments there as well, as some here, are some we can better do without as to the better side of things IMHO. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKpQRjj_W......aynext=1

It's Gary Kurz who mentions this in his booklet "Leading with your head". I'd like to quote him but I cannot find my copy at the moment.

Well said, MB. What funsway here is doing is sharing, innovative and alternative ways to view and perform magic. Yes, the camera angles weren't the best, the movement of hands and "sleights" could be "improved". But I would like to see you perform HALF as good in real life when your hands are limited due to arthritis. So people, just enjoy what's been shared and hop off already.

Well said, Flyswatter!