I’ve rewritten a lot of the bios of magicians of the past in Wikipedia. Also, I have monitored it occasionally because I find that people make changes that I am not happy with. One in particular, someone keeps changing David Bamberg’s middle to Theodore and I keep changing it back to Tobias. Who is correct? Every book I have that mentions him lists his real name as David Tobias Bamberg.

Theodore (or "Theo") Bamberg was Okito. I am pretty sure you are correct on Fu Manchu's real name as Tobias. Contact Norm Nielsen, as I'm sure he would know much of that family's history. If I'm wrong, I'd like to have corrected information.

Thanks I think I will. I am still having problems with this guy as he just changed it back to Theodore. I quoted sources from the Illustrated History of Magic and David's own book Illusion Show.

Sounds like he's just screwing with you.

Sounds like it to me too.

The name of Fu Manchu was only David Bamberg

Mpascoe:

Now you understand why most serious researchers consider Wikipedia to be among the least reliable internet information sources. Don't waste your time or effort on Wikipedia. Get your own web site and post your work to it, instead. That way, you have complete control over your material AND you don't forfeit your rights to it.

Don't bother with these guys who are selling domain names in the Tricks and Effects for Sale section of the Café. IMNSHO, that is either a big ripoff or a sure sign that someone has no imagination.

If you feel that you MUST post to Wikipedia, footnote your information. Also, complain to the owner of the Wikipedia domain. He is easy to find. He goes begging all the time.

BTW, you should ask the moderators to change the title of this thread. Tobias would be the middle name, not the last name. His last name was Bamberg.

You are so correct all accounts Bill. And I'm sorry about that little goof about the title. I'm glad you brought it to my attention.

The sad part is that most people I know rely on Wikipedia for information and they will let any one post on it. I have put footnotes on it and he disputes everyone one.

I once went on the Wiki page for Mýa ‎the girl that came in second on Dancing With the Stars. Under her accomplishments, someone replaced "tap dancer" with "lap dancer". I changed it as soon I found that someone was just trying to be cute.

Every source that I have seen lists David Tobias Bamberg as the son of Tobias Bamberg and the father of Okito (Theo Bamberg). Most books about Fu Manchu refer to him simply as David Bamberg and don't give a middle name. What is your source for his middle name being Tobias?

I have him listed in my brief biographies of magic inventors simply as David Bamberg, but would be happy to add a middle name with a verifying source and no Wikipedian will be able to change it. I also have no middle name listed for Okito (Theo Bamberg) in case you have a source for that as well.

Trying to clean up Wikipedia is like following behind a 1000 head herd of cattle with a pooper scooper. It's a never ending task and it won't change what the herd does. The difference with cattle is they don't leave their crap for fun.

The main source for his middle name is straight from the horses mouth, David himself from his autobiography, "Illusion Show". Okito does have a middle name as well. His full name is Tobias "Theo" Leendart Bamberg (Okito).

Anyone who relies on Wikipedia as a serious source of information is as ignorant as someone who relies on the major news networks as their sole source of facts.

Using Wikipedia as a reference is, in the opinion of most serious scholars, about as silly as using the Encyclopedia Americana as the basis for a doctoral dissertation.

Unless all you need is a very brief overview of a subject, stay away from Wikipedia. It is an absolutely perfect example of the inmates running the asylum.

And the man who runs it is a bloody liar, and, in my opinion, an idiot.

Many people wonder why my cups and balls museum web site is password protected. It goes back to Wikipedia. Several years ago, I noticed a link to the cups and balls museum on Wikipedia. This was right below an exposure of the cups and balls and the shell game. As most of you know, I am very outspoken in my objections to exposure. I did not want a link to my web site right under an exposure of the cups and balls. I also did not want a link to my web site from Wikipedia, because the company that was hosting my site had some fairly strict limitations on bandwidth. All I needed was for about a dozen lookie-loos to sign on, and my site would be shut down. So I deleted the link. They put it back up. I logged on and asked that the link be removed, giving both of the reasons I have stated -- exposure and bandwidth. The Wicked Pedian told me that my web site "is a public resource." Now think about this. I pay for the web hosting. I write all the copy. I own all the cups. I make all the photos. All of this is copyrighted. How is that a public resource? Answer -- it isn't.

He disagreed with me. So I tried all sorts of methods to keep him from linking. Then I read his rules. Wikipedia does not permit links to password protected web sites. So, that's why I protected it.

Someone posted a question on Wikipedia about why they don't have a link to my site. The evil Wicked Pedian replied, "the owner of the cups and balls museum does not want a link from a site that exposes magic." He didn't quote his own rule.

So, he is an evil liar. However, as a minister of the Universal Life Church, I bear him no ill will. In fact, I'd be glad to marry his parents for him at no charge.

You may be able to marry his mother, but in most states you couldn't marry his father, even if he did pay you!

Not even in California.

I take de name from The Oriental Magic of the Bambergs of Robert Albo, I think he knows a lot about the Bamberg dinasty.

It’s a shame that the magic section on Wikipedia is bare, but after the dealings I have had with those people, I now know why. Bill is correct about them. Don’t ever use Wikipedia for accurate information about anything. They think they have the market on what is accurate and if you try to contribute, they say this is not a fansite or blog.

But, in reality, it is like a blog because of the freedom people have to contribute. They don’t have the facts on the subject of magic like we do and their constant interruptions make we quit trying to make the magic section better.

I've never knew of David's middle name.
But I suppect that Tobias sounds more familiar than theo.

I know that his wife lola went by lola fu manchu.
and she always dressed in chinese robes for formal attire.

I was 3 when I met her in s. america.

my dad would know because he was very close to okito
and knew david too.

If you check out Edwin Dawes "The Great Illisionists" page 193, the caption for the poster on page 192 states;

"Okito (David Tobias (Thoedore) Bamberg, 1875 - 1963), of the famous Dutch conjuring dynasty, ......."

It was not unusual at the time to have two middle names. Actually it is more recient that people have dropped down to just one middle name.

Maybe the person changing the entry is using this book as his source.

Okito was the father of Fu Manchu
and the topic was about Fu Manchu

The number of middle names a person had depended more upon the culture than the time. Some Spanish people, for example, have what are apparently several middle names. Many times, they are simply a string of familial names that they have accumulated from their ancestors. Spanish nobility had really long strings of names.

Russians usually have three "official" names, which consist of the following -- a Personal Name (we would call this a "First Name" or a "Christian" name."), A patronymic (derived from their father's name) and a family name. Example: Pyotr Ilyich Chaikovskii -- Pyotr is his personal name. Ilyich means "son of Ilya". Chaikovskii is his family name. For you spelling fanatics, Chaikovskii is the Library of Congress preferred transliteration of the composer's last name. His nickname would be Petrusha. If Pyotr Ilyich Chaikovskii had a son, his middle name or patronymic would have been Petrovich. If he had a daughter, her patronymic would be Petrova.

Then there are those wonderful hyphenated European names -- Jean Eugene Robert-Houdin, for example. Or Felix Mendelsohn-Bartholdy. Some of this is affectation, some of it is decoration.

Actually, last names are, historically speaking, fairly recent. And the mutation of those also is a cultural thing. When people moved from one country to another, it was not uncommon that their native name would be changed from their original language to the language of the country they came from or transliterated incorrectly.