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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-05-26 10:51, idomagic wrote: I second that. I've seen it happen before with building secrets, as well as performing secrets. The minute something gets out, it will at some point fall into the hands of someone who lacks the ability to execute the idea with the same skill and finesse as the original. It also comes to pass that some downline recipient of the idea creates the master blunder of cutting the corners he doesn't see the merit in. Either way spells an inferior product claiming to be the same thing.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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collective foundry Inner circle 1404 Posts |
Well done Peter - great notes on this!
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chmara Inner circle Tucson, AZ 1911 Posts |
BRAVO BOTH BILL & PETER.
Their answers just above are right to the point. The only thing they miss is how a new magician learns who is "earning" their price as opposed to who is shoveling barely acceptable stuff out the door so newbies can say "well I have that one too -- but it cost me less.".
Gregg (C. H. Mara) Chmara
Commercial Operations, LLC Tucson, AZ C. H. Mara Illusion & Psychic Entertainments |
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w_s_anderson Inner circle The United States 1226 Posts |
Excellent break down Peter! If someone didn't respect all the time and effort you put in to building your illusions they certainly should now.
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Aaron Smith Magic Inner circle Portland, OR 1447 Posts |
Brilliant Peter! I learned the difference between a professional prop and a knock off the first time I saw Scott's Wellington Origami. I had seen a knock off before. Words can't describe what I felt the first time I saw a REAL origami. That's when I truly understood the difference between a basement prop, and a professional prop.
Somehow I have a feeling that Magicjack has never seen a pro prop up close. Otherwise I don't think this topic would have ever been started. Peter, you are the man, and that was one of the best posts I have ever read on this forum. I really hope you start seeing some profit sometime soon.. |
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Peter Loughran V.I.P. Ontario, Canada 2683 Posts |
Thanks Ryan, chmara, Scott and Aaron!
The post I wrote was from the heart really. And it still didn't explain all of the costs involved in building a professional prop. I left out a lot of some of the other BIG expenses, such as lawyer fees and liability insurance, vehical lease costs, vehical insurance, Auto CAD designing, etc. I also actually have 2 full time employees (shawn and my wife Lyndsy, and we also have to hire a third guy(Andrew Galle)from time to time for when it gets really crazy busy. Im quite fortunate to have about 3 illusions being built in the shop at any one time, which is about the max my facilities can do, And like most builders, our building techniques and props get better every year. With all that said, I think I told the story in my previous post adiquately. Sorry I never did a spell check or grammar check, and hopefully it still read well. Also this is just one example from my personal company on this one prop. We do have other props that we may make a higher wage on, and others a lesser wage. But the principal is still the same. Also this is based on my personal operating costs. Some builders may have bigger facilities like Bill Smith or Splashes, etc, and others may have smaller facilities like Gerry Frenette(magic makers)Although Gerry is currently having a huge shop built on his new dream home, so congrats to my friend Gerry, so the operating costs my vary from builder to builder. But remember most bulders have spent more money on start up costs to have a shop built and purchased tools, not to mention the hours and years dedicated to the art, and have spent more money than what some doctors or Lawyers have spent combined going to law school or medical school. This money you will never get back, all it does is creates an income or job for you, but you still have to work those hours in order to earn your salary or hourly wage as a builder. There are so many Awesome builders to choose from and guys I respect so much, espicially because I understand what it takes to build professional props. Many of which are my friends, and with in the small group of legitimate builders, we all look out for each other. Ive called builders and warned them of knock offs, and vice versa, Ive emaild Johnny Gaughn about where to get good roller blinds when my manufactuer went out of business, Ive talked to Gerry Frenette about the best alluminum he ueses, Tim Clothier will tell his client that a part they are using is similar to one my props, and that they should get permission from me first before he builds it for them, Chance Wolf will call me and ask how business is, and if I have any thoughts on his new prop or vise versa, etc. There is an amazing List of builders here(and unfortunately way too many for me to list here) and I think they all deserve what they charge, as most of you know already. I look up and respect each and every one of them. There are however some people that just don't realize the difference in a basement build or home build vs a prop build. There was a young 14 year old boy(who will remain nameless) who contacted my with a link to a pic of this awefull looking cyrstal casket illusion whith a massive and non deceptive base(this thing was huge) and looked like garbage, and made of MDF, and was not deceptive, wood only, no alluminum, stairs built onto the base, and it looked like you could fit 10 girls in there. Anyway it had a list price of $1200, and said that he already knew the secret and him and his dad could build the box part on top of the base, but just wanted the base built. He said he was getting $500 from his parents, and said this should be more than enough to build him his base. Without trying to laugh, I decieded I must educate him. I first explained that the type of base I would build would cost a lot more in materials than $500, and why it would cost more. I also sent him various pictures of bases that I have built similar to the Accumulater illusion, just bigger: http://masterofillusions.ca/accumulator.html, I explained to him that if he spent his $500 or even $1200 on the other prop, that he would regret it, it would be heavy, just slapped to gether, poor materials, poor finish(it would have to be at that price), and it wasn't deceptive. I then showed him picutres of other builder's bases such as Rich Hill's Crystal Casket(which is again another excellent example of how a base should look: http://www.richhillsillusionshop.com/crystalcasket.htm, I was trying to show him that I wasn't just trying to get a sale, and if he couldn't afford to have a base built properly by someone like me or Rich or some of the other guys I had mentioned to him, then I advised that he save his $500. Any base built for $500 isn't going to be very good. I told him he should take the $500 and invest it in something else for his show, and told him to show the email to his father. I never heard from him again. I was a bit sad about this, as I want to help educate the younger generation, as this is who will be taking over when the rest of us are long gone. Peter. However if you want crap go to snap.
Brand New: - SNAKE BITE ILLUSION
www.masterofillusions.ca Follow me on Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/peter.loughran.9 Check out my new movie: www.plasterrockmovie.com www.globaluniversal.com Also visit: www.l2fireworks.com |
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Peter, your insight is amazing and spot on! But, unless I overlooked in your first post, I saw nothing mentioned about hardware, except the casters (no hinges, latches, handles, knobs, rivets, bolts, washers, nuts, screws, etc.). Nor did I see much in the way of shop supplies (glues and adhesives, solvents, cleaning supplies, sandpaper, solder and flux, welding rods, bits for routers and drill, saw blades, etc.). Last time I looked, the stores still made me pay for that stuff, too!
~michael
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Peter Loughran V.I.P. Ontario, Canada 2683 Posts |
Thanks Michael, you are right I didn't really mention the small stuff that ends up adding into hundreds or thousands of dollars. I just kinda threw all that into the cost of the $1800 I had orginally quoted. But there are things like sandpaper you mention. We buy these large rolls of stick and sand pads for our Makita hand sanders, The roll cost like $100 and we go through a several rolls a year, its crazy when you think about it.
We have a company called Balis Supply who come directly to our shop once a month and fill up our Bolt bins(all metal hardware like hinges, pind, nuts, bolts, screws, rivots, washers, nails, etc etc.) and then he gives up a bill based on what he topped up in our bins all billed out to weight. While it is more economical to buy the hardware this way rather than from Home Depot, you also have to do a minium order with them, for them to keep comming back each month to re-stock. And we are also out in the boonies, so you can imagine our minimum order is biggger than those located in the city. And the bill we get each month is large! But its also very handy, and you rarely run out of the basic hardware so your business can run more smoothly, so I think its worth it. A lot of people(in or outside of magic) think we are overpaid based on the overall "Retail Price" of a prop, until they try and do this stuff themselves then most would agree that we are actually underpaid. You have to love what you do, in order to do this, and lucky for me, I do love building illusions. I love building new orginal illusions that I have invented and watch them come to life, and also love designing and building custom illusions for guys, because I know they are "One Offs" and its exciting to work on something that to me is a lot like art, espicially when you are only building one, or very few of something. Derek Sellinger http://derekselinger.com/index.php?page=51 who I build a lot of illusions for, is one of my favourite repeating customers, because he always comes to me with these cool and crazy ideas for his show, and I have to figure out a way to make it work, and then build the things! that's a lot of fun, and then I get to watch Derek win convention competition awards with props that I built for him, its pretty cool(Then he tells me he wants to keep me all to himself...lol, which is really nice compliment because Derek owns illusions from many of the industry's top builders, and he continues to come back to me for his original illusions, so I must be doing something right). This is whats a really cool part of my job, and is what I get the most of out of my job, more so than the money. Its also been nice to actually talk about this stuff in a public forum, I didn't think most people would really care about the business side of building illusions. Its nice to know that the legitimate builders in our industry are appreciated! Anyway, that's all that is probably needed to be said to answer MagicJack's question from my end, and hopefully that helps asnwers his questions in regards to a $4000 Shadow Box, that he asked about. Peter.
Brand New: - SNAKE BITE ILLUSION
www.masterofillusions.ca Follow me on Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/peter.loughran.9 Check out my new movie: www.plasterrockmovie.com www.globaluniversal.com Also visit: www.l2fireworks.com |
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profl New user 57 Posts |
I am a New User; therefore, I do not know what I'm talking about. I must rely on the Inner Circle
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......start=30 : Quote:
On 2005-9-15 11:23, Starrpower wrote: |
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Christopher Starr Inner circle Heart of America 1850 Posts |
In the end, you get what you paid for.
Why are some illusions so expensive? Because the master craftsmen that design and build them can get their asking price for them. Simple supply and demand economics. My 2¢ CS |
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Banester Special user 669 Posts |
Peter no doubt you make a great product, but what about the guy who is charging the same amount using cheaply made hardware and maybe the thickness of the walls/sides/floor is less than normal, the fabric is a poor quality, the corners are not square, etc. These things are out there and the price is at the top end. I could be wrong, but I think that is what Jack was getting at.
Why do we pay these guys for upper end price for a lower end product? Yes it is a matter of supply and demand. If people would stop buying from these guys then they would be either out of business or forced to make a better quality product. We being the consumer are the ones to blame. And you don't always get what you pay for! Do your research before you invest your money and buy it from a reputable dealer or buuilder.
The art of a magician is to create wonder.
If we live with a sense of wonder, our lives become filled with joy -Doug Henning- |
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profl New user 57 Posts |
I keep reading "You get what you pay for"; comparing low price cars to high price ones; and on another thread : cubic zirconiums to diamonds. The last got me thinking as jewelers need special instruments to tell them a part as some times a 10x loop can't.
Recently Sotherby or Christe auctioned off Andy Warhol's art and the prices were staggering; greatly exceeding pre-auction estimates. Why would anyone pay so much for a silk screen from a photograph, which any half talent can make? The answer is the same as to why would anyone pay big bucks for a snotty Kleenex used by Madonna? Because Andy & Madonna are famous. So yes, the celebrity illusion constructor should command big prices for their work! They are not over priced. Indeed, I'm beginning to think they are under priced. After hearing about not illusion craftsmen but illusion construction artists, and after hearing how some illusionists are enraptured by their constructions, I'm now convinced they earn every penny and should get more. I'm really serious! These celebrity produced illusions make better magic. It is clear to me that some illusionists, just as some actors, work outside-in, rather than inside-out (the method), just like the great Sir Laurance Oliver. Owning and using these artistic creations transforms some illusionist into better performers. Just as wearing a certain costume make some actors give a better performance. And that transformation is priceless. What our artist constructors/designers need to do now is to transform audiences as well as illusionists. Think about those high priced handbags with the designer's name or initials in big letters. Both the owner and the watchers are impressed/transformed on wearing/seeing them Illusion constructors and designers need to start putting recognizable trademarks on their illusions and promote those trademarks to audiences. Richard(USA) I'm a new user; therefor, I do not what I'm talking about. |
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EsnRedshirt Special user Newark, CA 895 Posts |
A note on materials and quality-
There are two dressers in my home- one is from Ikea. The drawers don't open the whole way, the drawer bottoms are flimsy, and I don't expect it to survive if I move it a few times. The other dresser... I don't know who made it. It's hardwood, with solid construction. The drawers are put together with dovetail joints. They slide all the way out. The finish is old-time shellac, and still in good shape despite being used as an aquarium stand- yes, it's strong enough to support a 20 gallon aquarium full of water. I had it when I was a kid- got it from my parents. It's now in my son's room. He may put it in his kid's room. It's by no means "high-end" (I recall my parents referring to it as "that old thing") but it's quality built to last several lifetimes. These days, you may get that from a high-end furniture builder. You can't get that from Ikea.
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.
* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt. |
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insight Inner circle 3095 Posts |
Prices are always a function of supply and demand. No matter the industry. Economics 101.
Regards, Mike |
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Meshuggina New user 92 Posts |
Quote:
Not bashing or flaming, merely answering the question since it seemed quite obvious to me... College. And the price for THAT is skyrocketing! |
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