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The Curator V.I.P. Beware Vampire, I have 3909 Posts |
The Surnateum recently acquires a small white jade statue of Buddha (7 cm high) from the Hongshan Dynasty. The artefact is absolutely authentic and therefore extremely curious.
Buddhism appears around the VIth century BC, Buddha lived and taught in the northeastern Indian subcontinent sometime between the 6th and 4th centuries BCE. But the Hongshan culture, and consequently the statue, was proeminent in China between 5000 to 3000 BCE. The style of the Buddha statue predates the Hellenistic style of the early Buddha representations... The statue is also Janus style with two Buddhas back to back. |
Andy Moss Special user 713 Posts |
Interesting- the two faces perhaps representing the past and the future meeting AS the Buddha/present moment.???
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Bill Ligon Inner circle A sure sign of a misspent youth: 6437 Posts |
Hmmmm. If the statue is as old as you seem to imply, it can't be a representation of the historical Buddha. Perhaps it is a statue of some deity whose form led to later representations of the historical Buddha, or (and I hesitate to suggest this seriously) the statue represents a prior incarnation of the Buddha. Of course it is probably not as old as 5,000 to 7,000 years, and it would be difficult to provide a date without considering the circumstances under which it was found. It is certainly one of the most fascinating things I have seen!
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The Curator V.I.P. Beware Vampire, I have 3909 Posts |
There's no discussion about the datation, that's why it's fascinating. Other statues of "Buddha" have been found in Hongshan tombs ( http://www.thejaderoad.com/buddha.html ). The source is a French archeologist who was digging Hongshan tombs in China, years ago. I bought several items from his collection, including an extraordinary glass mask pendant (not Hongshan but probably Gandhara or Bactrian) and other amulets.
I can't find any other representation of a double sided Buddha. |
Bill Ligon Inner circle A sure sign of a misspent youth: 6437 Posts |
I think Andy's suggestion of the figure representing the "present moment" between past and future is an interesting one. Certainly, there is reason to infer something of the sort from Buddhist theory. I would really like to know more about the site where it was found. The figure is really a unique, fascinating and beautiful treasure. Curator, do you know anything more about the archeologist who found the figure? Do you have any knowledge of when it was found?
Oh, yes, is there any chance you can put up a picture of the glass mask pendant? I get vicarious pleasure from seeing the things you have!
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The Curator V.I.P. Beware Vampire, I have 3909 Posts |
I'll post a picture of the glass mask later, no problemo.
For more information, I've to meet my source again when he comes back from Asia. I think the objects were found in the nineties, but it's vague. Andy could be right. |
Bill Ligon Inner circle A sure sign of a misspent youth: 6437 Posts |
Perhaps we should give some credence to the claims of some Tibetan scholars that the historical Buddha lived long before the time given by Western historians.
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The Curator V.I.P. Beware Vampire, I have 3909 Posts |
Here's the mask (5 cm high).
Probably Gandhâra, but I can't swear it. A friend archeologist (and egyptologist confirms the authenticity but ain't sure of the origin. |
The Curator V.I.P. Beware Vampire, I have 3909 Posts |
The rendering of the colors aren't that good, alas.
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Harley Newman Inner circle 5117 Posts |
The invading White Huns, circa 500 AD, swept through the Hindu Kush, then southeast to the Deccan. They obliterated a number of buddhist kingdoms, including Ghandara and Bactria.
12 of the 17 buddhist schools of thought were also destroyed. Only parts of one scroll remain, out of several vast libraries that were burned. Otherwise, we have no idea of what set each of the schools apart from one another. There were a couple of pre-buddhist philosophers who taught many of the same things as Gautama. Vasistha is particularly known for his clarity of thought. Some Vedic scholars think that he lived circa 6000 BC. The concept of duality was already well-established, when Gautama came along. The statue certainly looks like a buddha, and exhibits certain mandated symmetries, but maybe it isn't.
“You can’t depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus” -Mark Twain
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The Curator V.I.P. Beware Vampire, I have 3909 Posts |
A link to a two sided Buddha http://history.cultural-china.com/en/164H3736H10342.html
Something to do with Yeshe/Namshe ? http://www.dhagpo-kagyu.org/anglais/scie......mind.htm |
The Curator V.I.P. Beware Vampire, I have 3909 Posts |
A copy of a Hongshan Buddha on Ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ZH017-CHINESE-HONGSH......46160293
The copy proves that a model does exist (different from mine) and confirms that Buddha was walking the earth more than 2000 years before he emerges in India. He's really close to mine (no third eye, a ball in his hands...) |
Philemon Vanderbeck Inner circle Seattle, WA 4694 Posts |
I'm curious to why both sides are identical as far as expressions go?
If this is indeed a representation of some form of duality, shouldn't some type of opposition be depicted? A puzzlement...
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
That Creepy Magician "I use my sixth sense to create the illusion of possessing the other five." |
Andy Moss Special user 713 Posts |
A globe when held by a Buddha represents an impartial, all embracing compassion without discrimination.
Whilst in 3000BC "Taoism" (Valley Eastern China) and "Bonpo" (Mountainous Western China) would have been in 'proto' existence they would not be at all as we would recognise them today.Such shamanistic practices may well have exclusively centred on local entities and with 'controlling' the powers of the environment rather than with the potential of a human to transcend the 'awesome'in the Buddhist way of thinking. The only other possible input (if we exclude visiting aliens) might be the Indus Valley civilisation via the North Silk Road route. That civilisation would have been flourishing around 3000BC.It is probable that meditation as associated with the 'exceptional spiritual individual' would have been understood and promoted in the Indus Valley area at this time.Such an icon (or the idea behind the icon) might have come to China via the Indus Civilisation? This is only speculation. I am gently and respectfully sceptical about the Chinese claims. Carbon dating is always problematic/inaccurate when dealing with objects from so long ago. The statues may have been added to the tombs more recently and if so then we would be looking at a date later than 250BC+- (post Alexander) since it is a well known fact that in Buddhism there were very few representations of Buddhas prior to this time. However I shall try to remain open minded. Nothing would surprise me.After all they once said Troy was only a myth and the flood may be based upon historical fact. As for there having been previous Buddhas I hold this to be true in faith. It is very possible that exceptional humans (karma wise) have achieved Samyaksambodhi (full enlightenment)throughout 'human' history. Humans have been around as free thinking beings for hundreds of thousands of years. That is to say humans have had the ability to 'respond' to environmental input for a very long time. It is all very confusing as Philemon says.I do hope that the icons of the Hongshan era are authentic to the area and to the proposed date.This could be ground breaking. |
The Curator V.I.P. Beware Vampire, I have 3909 Posts |
I bought several items from that collection and made them tested (not carbon tested for jade, but expertized by antiquarians and specialists). All of them were recognized as genuine by those experts, so I've little doubt concerning the authenticity of this representation. Plus, the collection was originally the one of an archeologist who worked in China in the nineties.
I'm sure the bouddha sold on Ebay is a modern carving and copy, but a copy from something authentical. So, the mystery deepens... |
Bill Ligon Inner circle A sure sign of a misspent youth: 6437 Posts |
Andy Moss, among other points, said:
"I am gently and respectfully sceptical about the Chinese claims. Carbon dating is always problematic/inaccurate when dealing with objects from so long ago. The statues may have been added to the tombs more recently and if so then we would be looking at a date later than 250BC+- (post Alexander) since it is a well known fact that in Buddhism there were very few representations of Buddhas prior to this time. However I shall try to remain open minded. Nothing would surprise me.After all they once said Troy was only a myth and the flood may be based upon historical fact." Yes, carbon 14 dating can only be applied to organic materials, which in this case would necessarily be associated materials. Such, of course, introduces much chance of error. In addition, C14 dating rapidly becomes inaccurate the older an object is. Regarding earlier incarnations of the Buddha, I tend to agree with Andy to some extent, but I remain skeptical of anything based on "faith." I think the Buddha would have us question everything.
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