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lithis Loyal user 298 Posts |
On Penguin Magic, I noticed that Oz has several new download magic items. They're selling from $6 to $10 as instant downloads. The demos look very nice and I'm sure they are fine instructional videos. My question though is this: Who's effects are these and how can Penguin Magic and/or Oz Pearlman sell them for profit? The specific effects I'm referring to are Cut And Restored Rope (appears to be the classic handling and method, nothing new), The Matrix (Yank Hoe's The Sympathetic Coins), and Delirium (what looks like Acer's Hofzinser's Delusion).
Are these effect methodologically different than the original handlings, or are the selling these routines with/without the creator's permission? The can of worms is, unfortunately, now open. |
Luke Dancy Inner circle Las Vegas 1157 Posts |
Man am I glad that I'm not the only one concerned about this matter. I was pretty upset when I saw such things as the Matrix, Triumph, and my goodness five different ways to force a playing card. If this is the kind of crap that magic is coming to we are all in some real trouble. This especially troubles me as a creator of card magic, and really makes me not want to let go of as much material in fear of people like Oz making a quick buck off of it. Pathetic, just plain pathetic.
Luke |
RyanSwigert New user Cincinnati, Ohio 87 Posts |
This is just plain wrong. Period. Until Oz can be creative enough to invent his own original (a.k.a. not Jason Alford's) material, leave the instant download effects to the creators. I can't imagine how he thinks it is ethical to sell ideas that aren't originally his & effects he doesn't own the rights to.
I'm trying to create Unity in the magic community, but people performing unethical business practices is not helping. Be part of the solution. Ryan Swigert |
rezamalek New user 61 Posts |
I don't see how what Oz is doing is any different than what many other magicians put out DVD's for.
Instructionals video that explains sleights, forces, or variations of classic effects are more than plentiful, so I don't understand the specific hostility towards Oz. I think he's doing a fine job moving his career forward while helping new magicians learn some great effects. That fact is, that if you disagree with the material Oz is doing you do not have to purchase it, no one is forcing it down your throat. If Oz was putting out low quality material with no practical value I could see where the complaints would be justified, but I feel that this is far from the case. |
lithis Loyal user 298 Posts |
His material is high quality in production, no question. But, just because I'm not being force to buy his material doesn't make it alright for him to mass produce (yes, mass produce since it's available to so many so quickly) copied material. He didn't create the effects or the forces, and he has no right to sell them as his own (whether he "credits" them or not) for his own profit.
You just can't do that. It's wrong, and on top of that, illegal. |
Ben721 Veteran user 314 Posts |
Guys, I am pretty sure that you guys are shooting at the wrong person. I don't believe Oz is actually the one in charge of the videos at all. I think it is up to Penguin on what they sell, and if they credit the creators, or get their permission. As far as Oz's PERSONAL creations, they sure do look nice.
Check out my new effect "As Good As It Gets" a gimmickles pencil or pen through bill effect. It closely mimmicks the slow motion phase of "Misled." About "As Good AS It Gets" for no gimmicks and everything being borrowed.
http://www.magic-notes.com/th |
Neoglobin Elite user 460 Posts |
"I don't see how what Oz is doing is any different than what many other magicians put out DVD's for. "
- - If other people steal something is it ok for others to steal as well? But its no different as you suggest! "That fact is, that if you disagree with the material Oz is doing you do not have to purchase it, no one is forcing it down your throat. " - - I don't think you get it. Were not complaining on how BAD the products are. Its how he can even sell it. "If Oz was putting out low quality material with no practical value I could see where the complaints would be justified, but I feel that this is far from the case. " - - As said before, its not whats being complained about. "I think it is up to Penguin on what they sell, and if they credit the creators, or get their permission. " - - You couldn't be further off. ALL magic sites SELL DVD's, but is it up to THEM to credit? No! It is up to the man in the video to do it. If Oz disagreed with what is going on, he wouldnt have agreed to do the videos in the first place. However, im still open to see what Oz has to say about this. My 2 cents!
Magically Yours,
Neoglobin. |
Ben721 Veteran user 314 Posts |
I think you took that wrong. This is not my personal opinion. I, like you, also believe that it's the person in the video that should be doing the crediting. But, I heard from someone else that it's Penguin that would be doing the "stealing" of the other routines. Maybe I am wrong. Hopefully Mr. Pearlman can clear this up.
Check out my new effect "As Good As It Gets" a gimmickles pencil or pen through bill effect. It closely mimmicks the slow motion phase of "Misled." About "As Good AS It Gets" for no gimmicks and everything being borrowed.
http://www.magic-notes.com/th |
Neoglobin Elite user 460 Posts |
Even if it was Penguin, Oz shouldnt have done the videos.
Magically Yours,
Neoglobin. |
lithis Loyal user 298 Posts |
It's not like Penguin can force Oz to do the videos. It's also not their responsibility to credit creators. That's Oz's job as a creator. It's also his responisbility to do his homework and not re-create other people's effects. I don't know if he has an original effect for sale at all. They're all either slight variations or blatant copies of other effects. I purchased Starry Eyed Surprise to check on the crediting issue and though he does say "inspired by Lee Asher's Thunderbird", he fails to explain that the routine is identical except for one move.
The problem remains though, in the fact that even if you do credit the creator, you can't sell their routine as your own, even if you do change the handling minutely to fit your own style. It's usually the creator's intent that you change the handling to suit your style. What they don't intend is for people to sell their routines for their own profit. I've already said it, but I'll reiterate, it's wrong and moreover, it's illegal. |
Ozer4 Veteran user NYC 329 Posts |
I'm not going to waste my time refuting your remarks Lithis, as you seem to think every routine is EXACTLY the same, with Starry eyed surprise aside from the first production every other phase is totally different from thunderbird. Done talking to you, get your research done before posting on my effects, please.
This will be my last post on the Café talking about any of these issues. The owners of the videos in question is Penguin Magic. I, aside from being hired by Penguin Magic to perform in these videos, have no connection whatsoever with the company. I'm very good friends with the owners. IF YOU HAVE ANY ISSUES ABOUT CREDITING/SELLING/LEGALITY OF THESE VIDEOS CONTACT PENGUIN MAGIC. I will not respond to allegations on forums anymore. I am an independent contractor, every video that I did for them as an instant download, we did the proper research on and it should say who to credit witn inspiring the routine. Some of the tricks are my own creations, such as Starry Eyed Surprise, Mystery Card, Delirium, and a few others. The ones that are quite obviously not my original creation, such as Matrix or cut and restored rope, a generic version has been put up and anyone whose thoughts and ideas could be traced back into helping to form the routine was credited. End of story. -Oz |
Jasonm921 New user NYC 86 Posts |
If it isn't a specific routine, with the exact same method than it is not copyright infringement (check Pepsi and Coca-Cola). That is the first point. Second, misery loves company. If Oz can make money by teaching yet another type of Matrix routine or another general effect that others like Sankey also place on their DVD's than so be it. It appears that too many magicians on this site have envy for anyone making money off of what they love to do (reminds me of rock bands in the 70's and 80's who were considered sellouts for making money, ex. CORPORATE ROCK). Of course you will have another post underneath this one, (totally ignoring my post) ranting about how Oz is making money off stolen ideas. All I have to say is be careful. The only individuals who are crossing the legal line are those who are making comments with the intent to create character defamation. Let's make sure we have all the facts before we start to accuse. Discussion is great but be careful we don't go over the line. So let's just enjoy this site with out having the obligatory scream session every few weeks about the same pointless arguments. We are here to help each other, not bash each other.
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madferit52 New user 1 Post |
Why don't you complain when other DVDs teach methods created by other guys than the guy that created the DVD? People are always re-teaching other's material. I think its very handy to have Oz teach stuff for like 5 bucks instead of buying a $30 DVD with the same material and some other crap. You guys are all being a bunch of ******. I'm with Jasonm. Quit being gonks.
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