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kal Regular user 111 Posts |
The definition of lie has to be examined.
The best resource is possible Ekman, who has spent decades in the field of studying lies, liars and and much more besides (for those who don't know). He is the foremost authority, as far as I can ascertain. In his earlier writings he therefore had to have a solid base for what is a 'lie', what is he trying to detect. After all, as we've mentioned, actors lie. Parents lie. Half-truths. Undisclosed information. It can all fall under the terminology. So when it comes to lies the best assessment I work with is as follows: A lie is when one intends to mislead another , doing so deliberately, without prior notification of some kind of this purpose. Therefore an actor is not a 'liar'. He may be untruthful, but as we are aware this is a movie, and have conceded to the 'suspension of disbelief' therein, we are 'in' on the lie (even though it may still emotionally affect us). So a magician, by public awareness, tacitly receives compliance from an audience when he is introduced as such. If a magi where to claim GENUINE powers, those of a supernatural nature, he would be crossing the line. And it is a fine line for the most part. We may claim certain skills that may in fact have no bearing on the performance but I think the difference is in how deliberate it is (i.e in the definition of a 'real' lie) To entertain, in whatever pretext, context or subtext is part of your unspoken agreement with the audience. To deliberately mislead them, when it is not necessary to do so (such as claiming the abilities come from your speaking with the dead) is a lie. It goes beyond your raison d'etre: to entertain people. Simply compare both to see the difference. If you have entertained an audience, displaying psychological forces or some such, and they were to find out how a trick was actually done; would it take away from their entertainment? Probably not. They may feel slightly deflated but the act was still engaging and enjoyable. If you have said you were speaking with their dead mother and they discovered the actual method you used to find out such personal information they would surely call you a liar, cheat, con-man and much worse. The reason being that you were not trying to entertain but to outright deceive. I hope this clears up some of the comments I've seen when it comes to the vagueness of lies and liars in general and what quantifies one, in any field. Although I certainly would like to hear if anyone disagrees or has other opinions or ideas of course.
I'm always honest about when I'm lying. And I'm always lying...
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Markkuhn2 Regular user 116 Posts |
Magic is entertainment. Pure and simple. End of story.
When I pull out a deck of cards in the lunchroom at work, people come over. Everytime, guaranteed. If I do my job right, they gasp. They laugh. Maybe, just maybe, they will return to their cubes and have a better afternoon after a good laugh. |
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Godzilla Inner circle Tied & Untied Witches on 5316 Posts |
Quote: On 2011-02-20 16:27, Cyberqat wrote:
"If you watch Godzilla backwards, it's about a big ass lizard who helps rebuild a half burnt-down city, then moonwalks back into the ocean"
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Chris Lina New user Philippines 80 Posts |
Just a thought...
just because other people lie, does that mean you should? |
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kal Regular user 111 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-02-21 16:30, funkilnxebec wrote: Well as I tried to clarify above lying is being used here as too broad a term. It's like saying someone is happy every time they smile. The action may be the same basic motion but the meaning, context, reason and underlying emotional states are as varied as the day is long. A smile can mean a hundred different things. Lying is NOT what magician's do. It is not what is happening. Just like an actor does not lie, not a painting. And yes, paintings could be said to be 'lying' to us. If you do not agree with my assessment of what does and does not constitute lying please let me know what is sitting uncomfortably, otherwise I really don't think a conversation about lying can continue. By which I mean, as I see it, magician's DON'T lie.
I'm always honest about when I'm lying. And I'm always lying...
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Chris Lina New user Philippines 80 Posts |
So, bottom line is, you shouldnt feel giulty because, to begin with...you are not lying. you may not tell the truth but that's just for entertainment...like actors...
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kal Regular user 111 Posts |
That's the way I feel about it yes.
I'm always honest about when I'm lying. And I'm always lying...
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55Hudson Special user Minneapolis 984 Posts |
An author pens a novel. It is in the fiction section of the bookstore. Did the author tell a lie?
Hudson |
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Rectify New user Florida 56 Posts |
You're not lying, when you start a trick people tend to view a magician as an entertainer. People like to be fooled by tricks, I believe it is a nice stress reliever.
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NLewis New user 41 Posts |
Ricky Jay once said that he has no problem lying to people. It is a conjurers primary duty, IMHO. I have no ethical problem with lying to achieve an effect what-so-ever. Without lying, the effects would be almost worthless. It's the sense of wonder and misdirection that make magic so fun to watch!
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Chris Lina New user Philippines 80 Posts |
Thanks for the insights:)
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Mr. Woolery Inner circle Fairbanks, AK 2149 Posts |
This thread caught my attention because of something that happened two days ago. My wife and I had an old friend over to dinner and I had a deck of cards out. I have recently (read: for about a week) been playing around with the idea of fortune telling with regular playing cards. As entertainment, not deception.
Anyway, I had the cards out and our friend asked for a trick and I totally blanked on card tricks. I was only thinking about shuffling. But I did something I had never done before. I did a simple card reading, after warning her that I had never done one before, that it is only for fun, not serious, and so on. Her reaction was close to tears. She was very emotionally moved and struck by it. She told me I should do it for pay and then told me she had spent a lot of time learning Tarot and that my reading was very good. I had not known she had any experience with Tarot and her reaction still (two days later) has me feeling odd. What Brad said on the first page really resonated with me. In my case, I did not intentionally deceive her. In fact, I made it clear that this is NOT something psychic, not a real reading, not something to put faith in. However, she was really struck by it and I realized that she is not thinking about my very honest disclaimer. Everything I said was very general, positive, affirming, and caring. I am sure that at least part of the effect was from the fact that I was focusing on her, being very affirming of her as a person. That will hit her emotionally a lot more than "pick a card." But the size of reaction was inordinate compared to what I would have expected. As to guilt, I do feel a bit odd. I'm a Roman Catholic, so the idea of performing as an oracle where people would take me seriously is very uncomfortable for me. I feel like the nature of doing a card reading crosses the line from theater into something else. Not sure what else, but something. I don't know it I will pursue this line of entertainment, but I find that I'm very tempted just because of the effect it had on my first effort. However, if I do a cut and restored rope trick, I have no guilt about saying I made the rope go back together. None whatsoever. That's just theater and nobody takes it for reality. -Patrick |
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Khal New user 27 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-02-23 08:15, 55Hudson wrote: I think this sums it up really well |
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Lliam New user 70 Posts |
Check out this video by Marco Tempest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvXqXcVF5......eo_title It's very interesting!
Lliam |
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Ekuth Inner circle Floating above my 1538 Posts |
I've pondered this question myself, especially after learning that magic really is 90% performance, 10% method.
I think people by nature are pre-disposed to believe in things that they cannot rationally explain- it keeps things interesting. We want to believe. We need to. Where *you* draw the line is important, I think. Yes, we want to "sell" the idea to the audience that we really do have powers that they do not- we can take the ordinary object and make it do something extraordinary. Otherwise, we would simple be demonstrating technique/gimmick. So belief is integral to what we do. If you're entertaining, encouraging that belief is fine. If you're exploiting, it is not. Where does the moral compass lie? If I put out a tip bucket and an onlooker drops in a five, have I robbed him? Or have I provided equal (or greater) value in entertainment- for that one brief moment that I have bent his perception of the world around him? I would say not. Value given, value returned. Go with your gut, our moral compasses are fairly well fixed for the most part.
"All you need is in Fitzkee."
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ThinkThurston New user 66 Posts |
I agree with several other posters who explained that while magic is deception, it is knowingly accepted as such by the spectator (in contrast to someone running a con.) I think it's important to view your performance of an effect as a 'gift' to someone and by doing so you will remember the importance of what you're doing and act accordingly.
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