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DWRackley Inner circle Chattanooga, TN 1909 Posts |
I think that I’m still approaching mentalism from a magician’s perspective. Blowing minds and shaking beliefs, but I think some part of me is still not getting the full commitment that a “true” mind reader should have.
I’m earnestly considering visiting a number of “readers” (around here, that’s considered seriously “dark side” stuff!), to study both the effect on the sitter and any techniques I can observe. Wondering how to proceed, some of my questions involve simple etiquette. Should I identify myself up front as a “student”, or let them “do their thing” before telling them my purpose. Or should I tell them anything at all, or just let the reading go as planned. While I’m sure that “open” or “shut” eyed will determine much about how this goes, should this even be mentioned. I can see shut eyes either not understanding or being genuinely offended by such talk. Anything specific I should do (or NOT do) with regard to “using” these folks for my personal research? I already have many thoughts on these subjects (always over-thinking), but nothing concrete. I’m not planning on publishing any secrets, and not really looking for a teacher/student thing right now, just learning how to be more “MORE” to my own audiences. May I know your thoughts, please?
...what if I could read your mind?
Chattanooga's Premier Mentalist Donatelli and Company at ChattanoogaPerformers.com also on FaceBook |
TonyBrand Special user Chicago, IL 507 Posts |
Hi Donatelli,
If I were in your position, I would not make any mention of your involvement with mentalism/magic. In my opinion, it would be more effective to let the reader "do his (or her) thing". I think it would be advantageous to observe readers in their usual setting with a typical audience and not have them feel the (assumed) pressure of being closely scrutinized by another psychic performer. I'm not saying you would do this, but I don't it would be beneficial to have the reader possibly feel uncomfortable / under observation during a set of readings. I would let the readers "perform" as they normally would while you make mental observations of their words and actions. Just my two cents... |
mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
I agree with Tony on this. Go to a reader (or better yet, go to a psychic fair and see several) with an open mind. Don't be challenging or skeptical. Later, when you get home, you can analyze what was said and done. You will learn a lot more this way than you would if they thought you were another reader or, worse yet, a skeptic.
And who knows, you might make some good friends along the way. (And that's when the really interesting research will begin.) Good thoughts, Bob |
IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
I would say its probably more important to speak to the people who have had the readings - and maybe approach it softly, saying to them that you've not had a reading before - and were a little nervous about it...and if they had any tips/suggestions, and if they didn't mind - how they felt about the reading...
otherwise you are putting any bias (known or not known) to what you are experiencing yourself...talking to others who have had readings may give you different feedback...
I've asked to be banned
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MentalistCreationLab Inner circle 1528 Posts |
D W, instead of going to one psychic at a time for a reading, I think you may better severed for the reasons of research by attending a psychic fair. There was a large one in your area a few years back but I am not sure it its still going on. Others with in driving distance (day trip) can be found in Nashville, TN, Lexington, KY, and Sharonville, Ohio. Some of these are attended by several hundred people and others have an annual attendance of close to a thousand.
At a psychic fair you can see a variety of reading styles and metaphysical applications. Also, you may wish to spend a few moments at a local spiritualist church, since there will be a medium or two present who will be speaking with the departed in some cases. AKA the Dark side you mentioned. There are also a few outstanding book on the subject written between 1850 and 1906 you may want to have a look at as well. Since these were written by people who were inspirational to the founding of spiritualism and spiritism. These books will be very different from the anti-spiritualist propaganda's movement works. So different in fact you may even start to wonder what ASPM was even talking about in the first place. While some of the above you may disagree with (that's perfectly ok) while attending I offer this advice, study not only the mediums and psychic but the attendees as well. As I think this may give you important insights as to the nature of your own audiences in some cases. Too often, performers think psychic stuff is about regurgitating cold or hot reading or simply reading the meaning on the cards etc, but it really is about interaction with the person your reading for. They must come first or the whole point of the "psychic reading" is lost. Now at a psychic fair you will be able to observe both of the sides I am speaking of and maybe learn a few tricks of the trade along the way that you can apply to you work. The last think I wish to say is that since your looking in to this stuff the information you seek is out there but unfortunately you will have to hunt most of it down and read countless pages of non sense just to answer a few simple questions about what your looking for. My door is always open feel free to message me if you have any questions. |
David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4005 Posts |
Sounds like great fun! If I were there, I'd go with you.
We could wear trench coats and fedoras and talk out of the corners of our mouths. Carnations in our lapels. Phones in our shoes. They wouldn't suspect a thing. David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
seadog93 Inner circle 3200 Posts |
Everyone said what I was going to say.
I would add that your question seems (to me, I could be wrong) to be looking at readers through a magic vs. mentalism lens. I am not even remotely a seasoned mentalist, but I've been involved in metaphysics and the like for around 17 years (since I was 13). I think it depends on what you want to do. Do you want to do readings? If you do, then you certainly want to visit some readers. Most readers are not mentalists or performers, they are just readers; don't think of what your doing as undercover research so much as getting a reading. When you talk about the 'true commitment" a mind reader should have, do you mean that you don't feel your totally believable? If that is the case I would think (just me) that you should try participating as a believer. Get an understanding, from a believer's point of view, what it looks and feels like to: give and get readings meditate go one guided visualizations use active imagination to converse with spirits Of course you don't have to believe in any of it in the long run, but if you can suspend disbelief just enough to accept it could be true. If that doesn't work for you you could try viewing it as psychologically useful. Also read from the perspective of believers and understand the logic of what pratitioners do and believe from their perspective. If you do that, then you will be able to be to perform any mentalism the way a real psychic would do it. Of course, if that's NOT what you meant then umm... sorry for such a long drawn out post. P.S. for starters check out these psychics doing readings http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/super......37455308 I've only listened to a few of them so I don't vouch for all of them, but some that I've listened to are very impressive. At least one of the psychics used to be a wonderful poster here on the Café (under a different name).
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b |
Dick Christian Inner circle Northern Virginia (Metro DC) 2619 Posts |
Just sent you a long and detailed PM (brevity has never been my strong suit).
Dick Christian
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DWRackley Inner circle Chattanooga, TN 1909 Posts |
Thank you all for your wisdom. I truly appreciate the counsel from so many differing perspectives. It occurs to me that I needed to specify my goals in this.
While my personal experiences have convinced me that there is more to the “non-physical sciences” than most mystery entertainers, skeptics, or even priests and shamans will ever fully understand, my purpose for this research is to become a more convincing stage performer. I’m using the “tricks of the trade” prescribed by Annemann, Corinda, Osterlind, and yes, Cassidy and Dunford as well! Interspersed with the (hopefully well camouflaged ) gimmicks and sleights is some very personal cold reading type material which is being very well received, and it is this aspect that I’d like to make as unsettlingly realistic as possible. I’ve done some small amount of studies in both meditation and hypnosis, and occasionally still use them myself, but am completely unversed in the world of psychic readings. I have an opportunity visit with a reader this weekend and am intrigued by the idea. I believe this is a shut eye, thus my concern for not offending her beliefs. If I do this, as Bob and Tony have suggested, I’ll simply be a “sitter”, fully participating and withholding analysis until later. I hadn’t considered talking with other sitters, and that is something that definitely should be done. Thank you for that idea, Iain! MCL, I believe there is an annual event in East Ridge, a suburb of Chattanooga. I don’t have the schedule, but seeing more than one style makes sense. I agree that the essential element is the interaction between people, and the study of mentalism has actually helped me in other areas of relationship. It’s really a fascinating field! David, don’t forget the silver cigarette holders and the newspapers with holes cut out. It would be fun! Thank you for the PM as well! If anything else occurs to you, I’ll be eager to hear (or rather READ) it. Thanks
...what if I could read your mind?
Chattanooga's Premier Mentalist Donatelli and Company at ChattanoogaPerformers.com also on FaceBook |
funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Is a "choice of psychic" also a "psychic choice?"
here is a story that might help with your project. Seven tables under the trees – a magic number I suppose. The large sign read, “Tomorrow Glen,” and some tables held smaller claims of portent and promise. The clash of knights in mock battle ebbed and waned from beyond colorful pavilions. The Bardic Competition was two hours hense and I’d never had a Reading done and some of the gals were comely enough and I had a gold dollar to spare. Why not? It seemed in keeping with the Faire. But, which to choose? Only six of the tables had seers or oracles or witches, whatever. Was the missing psychic inadvertently late or planning a dramatic entranc? Three men and three women. Maybe the empty table is a ruse. I probably should assume that each is equally competent or adept or charming. Even if I could listen in to their other Reads, by what standard should I judge the accuracy or wonder? Some of those leaving the tables are joyful and others perplexed. No anger – that is good, I suppose. Did they come for entertainment or with a weighty problem? Were they believers or skeptics? What am I? I wish I had seen them come to the Glade – observe how they selected a table. Maybe that would give some clue as to confidence or deep understanding of how potential Sitters made a choice. No, I can only watch how each acts before during and after a Reading. They must deal with my past, present and future. So shall I. Wow! A shaft of light through the trees has lit up one of the tables – blinding. Is it a sign? Actually, it looks as if each table will be alternately in light and shadow throughout the afternoon. Maybe I should try and find the person who set out the tables. How did he know? Beth used to go to a lot of psychics and never mentioned a guy – always saying, “She told me …” Guess this could mean the ladies have more experience, but then there is that old seventh son story. Who would I be more comfortable with? Never thought about that before. Do I tend to trust men or women more? Since I can’t choose one maybe I can eliminate several. Hummm. That girl doesn’t look over fifteen. Out! That blond guy keeps looking at a book between Reads. Is he bored or forgetful? Either way I don’t a Read out of a book. One more down. The older guy with the pile of stones on his table keeps glancing at me and chuckling. I’ll consider him later. The other guy is out by default. I don’t want to select between two men. Unfair. Tough! One of the women has to be eliminated. The older one is prettier while the younger one is better dressed, but I’m not looking for a date. This makes me wonder if I’ve ever made a decision for valid reasons. I could flip a coin. This is silly. It’s not like I am going to follow the advice of stranger. I doesn’t matter who the Reader is then. I should just plan to have fun. Maybe I should just close my eyes and stumble out there ‘til I fall down – let fate choose for me. What a cop-out! If there is any validity to a Read it is helping me take more responsibility, not less. No one can decide my future but me! What I want is courage. What I need is someone to listen and tell me the truth. Why am I here? Why am I at the Faire at all dressed like a Court Jester? If I can’t decide then maybe this is a just a stupid game. Lot’s of people are waiting their turn – just looking for a good time. Let them have at it! That’s what I was thinking, anyway. When I turned to wave goodbye, both the old guy and the young woman were sitting at the same table staring at me. The chair opposite was empty. Strange! Someday, I’ll share what happened at that table.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
Graymatter_Fireworks Veteran user Atlanta, GA 357 Posts |
You know, most of what I might have been able to contribute to this curious thread has already been summed up for me by the others.
I would be interested in a follow up in your research though D.W. Plus, I'm not far off your path. If you uncover anything strange I might want to check it out myself! -Brandon
"The social world in which we live, determines our experience of what is real." - John Gager
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seadog93 Inner circle 3200 Posts |
Did you go?
I passed by a sign for hand analysis at a local metaphysical store and remembered this thread. I got a 10 min analysis and was VERY impressed. Very accurate, very professional. Conveniently didn't have time to explain it all, but gave me some notes on her business card (which I am absolutely going to keep). Wonderful experience. It also helped me understand a few things about palmistry I had had trouble with in the past. Sadly I was too intimidated to admit I did readings also, and when I passed by on the way back the store was closed. Still, I had a blast and learned a lot; both about myself,from the reading, and about doing readings.
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b |
seadog93 Inner circle 3200 Posts |
I will also be investigating fingerprint interpretation now.
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b |
DWRackley Inner circle Chattanooga, TN 1909 Posts |
Ok, here’s the first blush...
There were two different readers (both women) working at the East Ridge Flea Market, one indoors, one outside. Indoors first: The lady was what I would call a little on the rough side. Without the headscarf, she could have been “Miss Kitty” on Gunsmoke. She really looked like a bottle blonde version of the stereotypical gypsy fortune teller. There were no “sitters” coming out that I could talk with. In fact most of the people were walking past pretty obviously trying not to see her. I was just about to chicken out, and walked past the booth, when I heard her call out “I heard you praying for me this morning!” That got my attention. I’m still wondering if I look that prudish or what, but it was a good hook. I turned around and looked at her and she said, “Thank you”. And nothing else. I asked how much for a reading and she said the reading was free, but I could leave whatever I wanted in the basket by the door. I think that’s a holdover from the days of illegal fortune telling. The booth was made up like a tent, with the flap tied open. It looked like it could be closed for privacy, but I never saw this done. It wasn’t really a tent; there was no roof. Just a long cloth along the walls. Inside was a small table with two chairs on opposite sides. My chair was small and portable; her chair was also small, but looked considerably plusher. She was obviously going for atmosphere, as there were charms and dream-catchers hanging on the walls, along with a couple charts. One was for palmistry and the other I didn’t recognize. It might have been a calendar. The first thing she said to me was, “You don’t really believe any of this, do you?” I was more than a little intimidated, and kind of laughed, and said “I just really don’t know”. She kind of bobbed her head back and said “Fair enough. Let me see your hand”. She pointed out several things that I’ve heard or read before. I’m still digesting much of what was said. I have to say it “felt” accurate, even being familiar with Forer. The things could have been tied together by a very keen observer, but someone much sharper than I am. One thing I did notice was that there was no, what I’d call “flip side”, or equivocal phrasing. I didn’t hear anything of the type of Barnum stuff where one thing is true but the opposite is also true. She also picked up that I’m a musician. That one’s got me baffled. I don’t play guitar, so there are no “calluses”. The only thing that comes to mind is possibly chipped nails from banging on a keyboard. This was a very impressive lady. Outdoors, this was a folding metal table set up a little apart from the other sellers. It was under the shade of a tree backed by a row of bushes that marked the edge of the property. There were several glass wind chimes hanging from the lower tree limbs, tinkling very gently. I thought at first this was a young (maybe teenaged) girl, but as I got closer I could see she was probably mid-thirties. There was a deck of Tarot cards lying on the table, but she, too, wanted to see my hand. Actually she held out her hand as if to shake hands, then slowly turned it over and began to read. (This is probably important. When I’ve tried cold reading out in a social setting, it seems to “work” better if I’m holding their hands. There may be some muscle reading going on, that I'm not aware of.) Some of what she said was the same as the other lady, and a couple things were different. I got more the feeling that this was someone who had just read the book and was reciting from memory. One thing they both picked up on, that I AM familiar with; I have both the “Magic M” and “medical stigmata” on both hands. The younger talked only about being a karmic healer, while the older woman (inside) went into much greater detail. Neither one said much about my “future”, which was kind of disappointing. The message (from both) was pretty much that I already have what I need to succeed, and that things will break in my favor soon. Just what any good entertainer would want to say. Overall, I think (looking purely from a “believability” standpoint) the older woman gave the better reading. I’m going to be thinking for a while about why I feel this way, whether atmosphere, age, details, or something else attracted me. I don’t think I got what I was hoping for, but maybe I’m not sure what I was looking for. (That sounds completely stupid.) I’m going to have to look at what I actually got. At any rate, I’ll also be figuring how this will help my “act”. ...and a good time was had by all...
...what if I could read your mind?
Chattanooga's Premier Mentalist Donatelli and Company at ChattanoogaPerformers.com also on FaceBook |
Dick Christian Inner circle Northern Virginia (Metro DC) 2619 Posts |
DWR,
Enjoyed reading about your encounter with the readers. Sounds like pretty standard fare to me. As re: the fact that neither said much about your future is not at all surprising. The good ones, at least the ones I know and book either don't address the future at all, especially if they perceive that the sitter is at all skeptical. If they do, it is only in the most general terms and even then it's only if they sense you have a question or concern about love, health, a job, money, etc., in which case you get vague information like get regular check-ups, I see romance in your future -- perhaps not right away, but in the next 12-18 months, etc., etc.
Dick Christian
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