As requested by Matt. Heres what he said.
Perhaps we should start another thread and come up with some simple ideas for dealing with a situation like this. Some of these first steps IMO would be 1) ask user privately, 2) notify builder? (I would think a notification would simply annoy them more than anything), 3) post publicly the statements that were confirmed either by the user or the builder? All ideas welcome.

Thx Luke!

To recap - a performer posted a video asking for some performance comments. One user posted that the performer should NOT be using knock-off products or acts. He basically said the performer stole both the prop and the routine. The performer then explained how all rights were given to him and he paid the necessary parties, but the original poster wasn't satisfied with that and continued his attack on the performer's character.

Clearly it was bad form. But then, there IS the ethics side of the equation. So what do we do? How do you think we should handle cases of ethics? Since we are a self-governing group concerning protection against knock-off illusions, it IS our business whether a performer is working with a knock-off. But how can we tell? Sometimes the designers of these props give rights to a single performer to have one built (and sometimes they are poorly built!). So you can't always tell just by looking at a prop whether or not it's a knock-off (meaning un-authorized).

How do you guys think we as a community should do the following:

1) Determine if a performer is using a knock-off or not
2) Deal with performers using knock-offs
3) Raise awareness for the "new guys" about the whole "ethics" thing. (Let's face it, NO ONE is thinking this has anything to do with ethics when they first get involved. It's about finding the best price you can on a very expensive illusion.)

Thoughts?

About performers using knock-offs: Many times the dealers sell the knock-off as the real thing. ie: Tannens, Mephisto, etc., and the buyer is not aware.

I will say two things

one- its hard to inforce the ethics of using legit illusions when the big names are supporting the knock off sellers or dealers. it all comes down to the almighty Dollar! I think it does start with the dealers and the sellers, as if they did not offer these knock offs then the builders would not be making any money and therefore look to get a legit job!

Two- as for routines- I have all original routines except one! let me explain. I see nothing wrong if you buy an illusion and it either comes with a routine or you see others perform it and you start out with that routine. I am not talking about taking a personal routine verbatum or somthing that is known as a signature effect, but for instance if I buy an illusion I see noting wrong with performing it similarly to the seller or originator of the illusion. that is if they perform it.
truth be told, there some times is not much you can do differently with certain routines.

I mean sub trunk or twister its pretty much the same for every magician out there. sure you can make them differnt with costumes and music but the illusion is still performed the same way.

I hope I am making sense here. I am by no way saying its ok to steal another persons routine in any way shape or form. but there will always be similarities.

now all that being said. if this is a signature routine not an illusion say like my change bag routine. NO it is not ok for any one to perform it or even do a similar routine just by changing the color of the silk or changing some of the patter. that is not ethical. to take Jeff hobsons card in mouth routine and perform it verbatum that is wrong but lots of magicians perform card in mouth.

but to buy an illusion or a trick and then perform it similar to the person that sold it or created it I think it is ok to be similar for a while. but we need to make the magic our own to fit our style our performance and our own creativity.

sam

I agree with that. You have to start somewhere!

Reality? There is nothing WE can do about it.

This is an individual decision made by the producer of the product and the consumer or buyer of it. There is no regulatory body that can get involved and even if WE try to start one here, then what powers would it have to try and stop the practice?

The number of magicians using a knock-off, either professionally or home made, is beyond the reach of anyone here at the Café, the IBM, SAM or any other magical organization. There are far more magicians not on the Café or belonging to a particular club or affiliation than do belong. It quite frankly would be impossible to get them all globally to belong to any one group or organization that could then regulate behaviour.

There will be some who use a knock off because of the price. However, I would guess that most will use a knock off because the average magician doesn't care who invented any particular trick or illusion. It doesn't concern them. They have no reason to look up the genesis of a particular effect and the thought of doing so probably never even occurs to them. It also never even occurs to them that they might be doing something wrong or that there is an ethical issue.

Ripping off intellectual property is common and acceptable by large segments of the world's population who have access to do so. Look at the illegal downloads of music and movies. Before that the videoing of tv shows and movies and so on.

Many people today just do not see that they are committing a theft or the harm in their actions. Why then would we expect that some (perhaps many or most) of a totally unregulated, unorganized, unsupervised, unaware bunch of individuals who call themselves magicians should behave any differently?

Don't get me wrong, I do not believe it is right. I just don't think WE can do anything except gripe and moan about it.

I do think with is there is much we can do. Just not might be what some want. Normally we want instant gratification or things to be our way: Unfortunately our art is not as black and white as this. But I feel it is our duty to set new standards and precedent for standards in the industry. Some random points in no particular order. Knowing no one is perfect least of all myself but: everyone makes mistakes, its important to
learn from them and move on. Some thoughts are below.

On Prop Or Concept Design/ Overall

- BUYER BEWARE** Just because your seller says that rights have been paid >>assume they have not been.<< Do your research, contact the designer/originator or owner of said license, and ASK. If you don't do the
research you may have an expensive lesson on your hands. Buy from reputable builders, designers, sellers. Do your research anyway. Never know might save yourself quite a bit of grief in the end. Unfortunately though
in theses cases when the prices is right,your dealing with some people where the bottom line is more important than the ethical side of the transaction, this is where the rub is. I'd say in this case its our responsibility of
a brotherhood on keeping each other accountable. These kinds of people just don't care sometimes, in some cases international law could prevail (see choose your battles)

- As a designer I'd appreciate knowing about blatant knock-offs/rip off's I'd welcome such contact and research possible conflicts if contacted.

- I feel its just as much as MY responsibility to respect other people's designs as it is them for mine, I feel if I have an issue it would be my responsibility to contact the possible offender. Don't let others fight your
battles for you. Man up. Do everything you can do handle the issue independently, or seek out legal council or help from your peers if the issue cannot be resolved by yourself. (But you have to try first)

- KNOW THE HISTORY. Try to know history and beginnings of effects to avoid conflict/duplicates or similarities. Contact living designers, performers or developers if anything is uncertain, don't let money cloud
decisions NOT to do something. Be creative, anything is possible if you just ASK. Its OK to go in other directions. Research the past. Research Research Research.

- KNOW THE HISTORY!!, See whats been done before, take proven working methods, and do something different. There is nothing really NEW about methodology, sometimes there is but mostly things are based off of
historical workings: but there are plenty of ways to make things different, through art direction, artistic approach, design, performance, and so- on. Know your history, back up research with historical fact, reach
out to living professionals, reach out to historical material. There's plenty of it and its easily obtainable.

- Someone contacts YOU because they feel you might be infringing on their proprietary rights, keep an open mind, remember this is a brotherhood. An Art. Its just as much as a responsibility to work together as
artists and collaborators, protecting each others works as it is our own. Sometimes the bottom line needs to be overlooked for the sake of the art.

- Be different, try to chart uncharted territory, people will think your nuts. people will tell you no. people will say its unwise or unpopular or stupid. But if you be yourself, go in different directions many conflicts of
interest can be avoided. See know your history.

- Choose your battles. Inevitably your going to have someone who does not respect the art, themselves or you. If you've done everything you can privately, and the matter is not resolved turn to IBM, SAM and
associated societies, or public forum to state the facts, or seek legal council. Sometimes though we do need to choose our battles. Sometimes things need to just be let go, Cut your losses and move on. Choose your
battles. See it through no matter what. Try to be professional and ethical throughout, although (myself included) emotions can blur these issues easily. We're human after all.

- Pave the way: set a precedence in what you do, see if one can set a new precedence for ethics in the way YOU do things, the way YOU do business with others in regards to design, contact local organizations
IBM/SAM and see if things can be done differently, suggest new ways of protecting our art and addressing ethical issues.

Reed,

The vast majority of people who call themselves magicians could care less about the history of a trick or prop. They just want to perform it, or at least learn how it is done. All the shout outs from a few individuals here won't make a bit of difference to them. They don't even know you (nothing personal), or I exist in most cases, never mind give a d**n what we think. The majority do not see magic as an art, do not belong to the IBM, do not belong to SAM, do not visit the Magic Café and so on.

Even considering the dozens of professional magicians that I know personally, only 2 or 3 visit the Café and perhaps 1/3 of them belong to a local IBM ring. They just don't choose to bother and who can blame them for making that choice.

I believe as an individual, you can live by the standards that you deem fit. Beyond that, you're preaching to the converted here and the rest of the congregation (the overwhelming majority) is away on permanent vacation and not reading the memos

RJE2
Agreed.

Great thoughts everyone. Enjoying the discussion.

I own expensive, custom built illusions that come with performing rights and everything and as it turns out, I also own a copy (i'm currently trying to resolve this with the original builder, who also made props for me)
I paid the price of an original but got a copy..

This is all that matters: It's not fun working with knock-offs, things break, small details that have a big impact have been forgotten, etc etc...
If you want to avoid akward situations, get the real stuff, have it made to your size, weight (or your assistants) and you will be the proud owner of a prop that always works, looks good and is fun to work with.

Natural selection & karma work just as well in our art: If you buy cheap stuff, don't take care of it, bad things will happen to you eventually and you will destroy your reputation.

Sorry but that 18 year old kid magician who does not come on the Café nor really go to any magic meetings is not concerned with who made it and who owns it. all they are thinking is that "i can have the same illusion hans klok has. or lance Burton or whom ever"

they are only thinking that they can have the big boy toys well before they are ready for them.

this is the big problem.

that is why S*N* A*P and other builders make money they are catering to those that either don't know or don't care and saddly there are a lot of those kind of magicians out there.

I firmly believe it is in the hands of the SAM, IBM, and all the other magic fraterities to stand up and set the tone for what is right and what is wrong

when you have magic organizations hosting compititions and they let magicians perform Knock offs or stolen routines they how on earth are we ever going to make a difference and end this.

that is the real question.

sam