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rcarmichael New user Sydney, Australia 30 Posts |
Hi all.
I am a magician wanting to get into grand illusion. Obviously the set up costs for this are quite large, and so I am trying to get the best value for money. Thus, I want a base which I can use for multiple illusions ( the base would of course be decorated differently for each). So far I am tossing up between instant babe by Dan Summers or crystal cabinet and plunger by oz illusions ( http://www.magicauction.com/Auction_L_Foreign/ultamodern%20combo%20LF43467.jpg). Which would I be better off purchasing for this purpose? ( I would use it for about 4, including the two in the first option, ie I would make new " boxes" to fit on top). Any assistance you can offer is much appreciated Sincere regards, Ryan
Ryan Anand Carmichael
http://www.RyanCarmichael.com/ |
rcarmichael New user Sydney, Australia 30 Posts |
The link didn't quite come out right - here it is again:
Quote: On 2012-05-25 01:07, rcarmichael wrote:
Ryan Anand Carmichael
http://www.RyanCarmichael.com/ |
john wills Special user 939 Posts |
Visually speaking it's not clever to use 4 times an "escape" with a the SAME b**e. Every good illusion has his own design and the b**e has to be an integrated (but visually ! separate) part of the illusion. Start studying our art carefully, before giving big bugs for illusions you hardly can use.
Instant Babe could be a good choice, but you can play it only working a big stage. Normally that's not the place where new magicians start. One thing is for sure: starting an illusionshow will cost you much money. It's not only the apparatus itself, but also costumes, transport, music, lighting, rehearsal space etc. etc. If you start in this part of magic, it's wise to invest in illusions that can play everywhere (even "surrounded"). Three or four well chosen illusions have to be your first choice. Buy some good books on illusion and start a good research reading topics and post in this Café. |
illusiontech Loyal user Las Vegas 210 Posts |
1) Instant Babe is a great illusion, but Stacey Jones from the former Majestix is 5'2" which makes it look small in the video. It is not an illusion for someone that uses various girls. The first one was built for the Majestix and around her!
2) Base designs are VERY dependent on the prop they are on and should be designed as such. Multi prop for one base concepts have been around, but a deceptive prop starts from the ground up. 3) An assistant can be produced in various and inexpensive ways using Black Art, crossing panels, etc. I think a first timer would get more out of a Zig Zag, Sword Basket, Sub Trunk or another personality illusion. 4) Please buy illusions from a reputable name builder whether used or not. They will last longer, be more deceptive and hold their value longer. 5) Cases Cases Cases!! or a reusable crate are a must!! If you are going to spend the money on a prop, protect it! Just my 2 Cents, Vinny |
Selcouth New user 29 Posts |
While the multi-use base concept is attractive, there are a number of points to consider before building or commisioning work.
In my opinion, it would be totally wrong to try to select a random range of effects (plans or pre-built) and then try to adapt them to use single base. To make a multi-base work, the effects would have to be created around ones that use bases of a similar design (e.g. a rectangular trolley, a square floor base, etc). This restricts the choice and may well result in effects that look too similar to each other. Most performers jump between completely different designs to add variety. There is also the danger that if you keep producing an assistant from the same base, the audience will soon figure out what is happening. To make this work, there would have to be a distinct advantage. Much of the cost savings would probably be wiped-out by additional design and construction problems, so the only real advantage would be a reduction in physical size and weight; however, the base often forms an integral part of the effect for transportion, both in transit and backstage so things are not that staightforward. Without the base, you may need to build additional protection for the effect, which reduces the size-savings and pushes the weight back up. There is also a handing consideration. Each effect would have to be removed from stage after use and stripped off of the base. A new effect would then have to be added and fixed securely. Who is going to do this? How long will it take and what is the performer going to do while this is happening? Whatever time you allow for the change, that time will increase during the stress of a performance...but what will happen the day that the first effect is removed from the base and the second one does not fit? No matter how much additional strength is added to the design at the point where the base meets the effect (even more weight and bulk!) there will come a time when there will be a breakage, a jam or something will fall into the mechanism making it impossible to lock. If you plan to perform four effects and you have a problem with the base after the first one, the entire routine is down. The concept sound good and it is not infeasible, but there are a lot of negatives to think about. I have probably only just scratched the surface. |
Sorcerer Loyal user 289 Posts |
Rcarmichael, listen to the advice that give you the other members of the Café.
The same base for several devices may seem cheap, but it is a big mistake, very common for beginners. Actually four different props can be physically mounted on the same base if you respect certain dimensions, but for sure you are loosing deceptiveness. The multipurpose base is some kind of misleading intended for newbies. If you finally enter the world of illusions, when you take a while, you will realize that what you want now is a utopia. As they say you well, is not only a matter of decoration, each device must be designed in conjunction with its base and each device requires a different base. |
Jason Johnson New user Houston, Texas 50 Posts |
I too, want to start doing illusions. Let me share what I'm going through and see if it helps. I'm building up little by little. I've performed the Victory Cubes illusion by Creative Magic three times, and I sawed someone in half for the first time earler this week. This was a kids show, and everything else inbetween was easier stuff to fill the illusion bookends. I just purchased a subtrunk. In my future adult show, I plan on filling up space between illusions with other effects that play well on stage such as the Invisible Deck card trick. The size of the venue has to be considered when planning a show, so you don't want to do mega illusions at an elementary school, but you also don't want to do the invisible deck at a Vegas theater.
If you do purchase something from Dan Summers, he's a great guy and he knows what he's doing. I hope things work out for you! |
Selcouth New user 29 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-05-25 08:56, Jason Johnson wrote: Why not incorporate other tricks in with the illusions instead of just using them as fillers? The sub trunk is a great trick, that is why so many performers use it. But the exposure it gets means that many of the audience will have seen it before - so liven it up and do something unexpected. In the last five minutes, I have created a routine in my head involving a signed plastic bag, an assistant and a goldfish in a bowl. Do a couple of switches, disappear the goldfish and finish with it inside the signed plastic bag locked inside the trunk with the performer. You will not even need to be practiced in sleight of hand, as all the trickery is done out-of-sight. There could even be some fun with the water disappearing from the bowl followed by the appearance of an assistant in a wet swimming costume or a wet t-shirt (depending on the audience). A routine such as that could fill more than twice the time of a straight sub-trunk switch. Spend more than a few minutes thinking about it and you will almost certainly come up with some far better ideas than these. If are playing to an adult audience, why not disappear the performer and the assistant? A stage hand comes on after hearing some banging from the trunk and rescues them both from inside the locked bag. YES: I know it is a squeeze and the final cloth drop takes some practice; but it is not impossible. I promise you that it can be done...I know. Been there, done it. Be creative and the show will be far more entertaining without the need for any fillers. And, to pull this thread back onto topic, you will not need a multi-base for a sub trunk |
john wills Special user 939 Posts |
Selcouth,
That's what I call a healthy way of thinking ! Out of the box.... |
rcarmichael New user Sydney, Australia 30 Posts |
Thank you everyone for your informative responses.
@john wills: Luckily I am a fully qualified entertainment technician, and so set up and operate my own lighting and sound. But yes, I can see how it would all add up. I have invested in some very good reading material and videos, including Illusion EFX (Andrew Mayne), Worlds Greatest Grand Illusions (IMS) and Illusion Systems (Paul Osborne). Unfortunately, I am not a very good "handy-man" and thus, building these illusions has been quite difficult. Getting them built by others has been too costly for my current budget. And so, I was hoping to purchase some effects second hand, from reputable makers of course. @illusiontech: Vinny, I was considering black art, but was worried about setting up a backdrop in the venues I use. I was also looking at Zig Zag, but the mechanics of building it prooved difficult, especially for me. Also, I agree, I was also going to purchase ATA cases for the storage of this equipment. @Selcouth: I was hoping to have the following effects using the base (which I feel use quite the same base design): Crystal Cabinet (Smoke), Plunger, Spiker (or DS' Foul Play), and a Blamo Box type production for the appearance of two assistants or transformation. I chose these effects also as theyre "effect" is quite different from the next, ie appearance, compression, danger, and transformation. I was going to incorporate smaller non-assistant required acts into my show so they could modify the illusions accordingly. But I never considered the fact that if the base "breaks" in the first illusion, all of the illusions are out - thanks. Also, I have already considered the Sub Trunk, and think that I will be able to build this - and have already thought of a routine that "mixes it up a little". Thank you also to @Sorcerer and @Jason Johnson. Perhaps if I just purchased the Oz Illusions item which is MADE for both the Crystal Cabinet and Plunger, and do not add any further "tops" to it, plus the sub trunk, this would be the best option to get me started - what do you think? Sincere regards, Ryan Carmichael
Ryan Anand Carmichael
http://www.RyanCarmichael.com/ |
mvmagic Inner circle Has written 1322 Posts |
The Oz Illusions crystal/plunger could be a good choice-though you would need to separate the two effects. I might be mistaken, but I was under the impression Oz Illusions doesn't build anymore. Instant Babe wouldn't work with your idea, its a totally different beast compared to your average base.
I do understand the lure of big illusions, but I would advice taking baby steps. Incorporate one illusion to your act first and go from there. It would be awfully nice to always have a great stage with good lighting, backdrops, fly systems, traps and whatnot at your disposal. Vast majority of magicians don't have that luxury, and that does limit your choices quite a bit. Personally I've had too many cases when the client said "we have a great stage" and it was in reality merely a platform on a gym floor, bright lights and no control over sightlines. I wish you best of luck in magic!
Sent from my Typewriter
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Sorcerer Loyal user 289 Posts |
Perhaps buying the Oz crystal casket/plunger could be an option (don't think the best one, buy sure a usable option). You can still get them second hand here: http://www.magicauction.com/Mag_auc/Fore......nown.htm for 6600$.
Forget Summers' Foul Play for the same kind of base, FP has nothing to do with this base, and with Blammo you left me totally shocked: why you need a base for a Blammo?? My advice would be that before making a large investment (6600$) that you might regret, start with something cheaper and portable, like for example, a subtrunk plus a broom suspension (that both will cost you less than half). If you succeed with this, you can gradually rethink to increase your investment in larger illusions, but please forget the idea of ​​using the same base for all your gear, because you will lose your money. Best wishes!! |
rcarmichael New user Sydney, Australia 30 Posts |
Hi @mvmagic - Oz Illusions has closed, but this is one of the designs they used when they were open - second hand, as I am trying to keep the cost down. Thanks for the info about Instant Babe, that's what I was thinking.
@Sorcerer - Yes, that is where I am hoping to get the illusion from. I only want this as a starting prop, once I have gotten a bit more cash from performing it I intend to expand my repitore with more, and more "single use" illusions. Thanks for the info on FP. Blammo wasnt the right effect, sorry. I meant more a tiger cage- ie someone behind and someone under. I am definately going to start off with a Sub Trunk. As everyone has said, forget the use of the same base for multiple illusions - so, with the exception of the Crystal Casket/Plunger, I will take that advice on board. Thank you all for your assistance, Sincere regards, Ryan Carmichael
Ryan Anand Carmichael
http://www.RyanCarmichael.com/ |
Dennis Loomis 1943 - 2013 2113 Posts |
I think it's an important concept of magic that you should NOT repeat the same method is the same show or act. If you are doing a routine of card tricks, you should not do the Elmsley Count in two or more different effects. I think that the same thinking might be applied to illusions. Do you really want to do two or three illusions all of which sit on a "thick" base? I'm not saying that you couldn't use the same base for more than one illusion... just that it's inadvisable to use them in the same act.
If you look at the design of the original Culpitt Doll House, you will see that the base does NOT match the look of the Doll House at all. It appears that a real little girl's Toy Doll House was just set onto a table with casters in order to roll it out onto the stage. It occured to me (I've never gotten around to doing it) that this was a great idea, and to make it even more deceptive, the Doll House might be on the base off-center and at an angle as if whoever put it on the table did not get it lined up and in the middle. Once, when Doug Henning was returning to Los Angeles with Charlie Reynolds, Doug remarked: "It's back to the land of magic with thick tables." Typical of Doug's wit; I've always been glad that Charlie shared the remark with me. Dennis Loomis
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com |
Dennis Loomis 1943 - 2013 2113 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-05-25 08:56, Jason Johnson wrote: so you don't want to do mega illusions at an elementary school, but you also don't want to do the invisible deck at a Vegas theater. I've done lots of big illusions in Elementary Schools, and David Copperfield has performed the Invisible Deck in Las Vegas Theatres. Dennis Loomis
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com |
rcarmichael New user Sydney, Australia 30 Posts |
Yes @Dennis Loomis, I think that is what I would do - have a base with multiple illusions, but only use one of the effects per show, so if they re-hire, they haven't seen the "new" effect. Now that I think about it, that's how DC did it in his most recent show I saw (Squeeze Box).
Ryan
Ryan Anand Carmichael
http://www.RyanCarmichael.com/ |
ClintonMagus Inner circle Southwestern Southeast 3997 Posts |
Didn't Rich Hill once make a single base "multi-illusion"?
Things are more like they are today than they've ever been before...
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Chris Stolz Inner circle Mississauga, Ontario 1958 Posts |
I wouldn't use something that stands out more than once in a show. I couldn't use the 4 Way Split base twice in the same show as it's got a very certain look to it but I could build another top for it and use different tops for different shows - but only use the table once a show.
Chris Stolz
BLACK ART BOOK: Hiding In The Shadows. |
rcarmichael New user Sydney, Australia 30 Posts |
@ClintonMagus: Yes, with a tiger cae and crystal casket.
@Chris Stolz: Yes, That is what I am thinking of doing. Ryan
Ryan Anand Carmichael
http://www.RyanCarmichael.com/ |
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