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Bob1Dog Inner circle Wife: It's me or this houseful of 1159 Posts |
Interesting discussion going on over in Boxes, tubes & bags about Madhatter Magic Shop sellng a knockoff version of Dean's Box at a cheap price. The description on their web site even uses the words "Dean's Box."
Check out the Café forum in the first link below, and the Madhatter site ad in the second link below (also found in the forum). Madhatter claims that Dean Dill took the idea for the box from Elizabeth Warlock's rope tray (which I'm not familiar with, perhaps y'all are). I own Dean's Box and I paid the price for it because it's his original box and the quality is excellent. I don't like the idea of others taking the effect, copying it and selling it cheaper. I don't like that Dean Dill is getting ripped off. If I was Dean Dill I'd be pretty upset about this. But on the other hand, I also collect stuff and appreciate quality. Yet, some magicians may not be able to afford the original and the knockoff serves them well. Then again, knockoffs don't usually last long or are so bad they don't work properly, so perhaps any magician in the know should only purchase from the original creator. What say y'all? I'm interested in the legal perspective here from the lawyers. Seems like knockoffs are rampant out there. Should I be angry at Madhatter or not? As of now I won't buy anything from them. Can anyone convince me why I should? http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......rum=8&17 http://madhattermagicshop.com/magicshop/......id=10472
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?
My neighbor rang my doorbell at 2:30 a.m. this morning, can you believe that, 2:30 a.m.!? Lucky for him I was still up playing my drums. |
LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Mobility Bundle is the IP lawyer around here, but unless Dean's got a patent, I don't think there's a legal issue. Essentially, you have two options when creating something - lay out the bucks for a patent and share the design, and get exclusive rights for a limited time; or just put it out there, in which case you don't have to disclose the design, but others can reverse engineer it. Coca Cola, for instance, is not patented; they just rely on branding + everyone else's inability to get the recipe quite right.
The second IP issue is the use in their advertising of the phrase "Dean's Box," which enjoys trademark protection (regardless of whether Dean actually registered the trademark). Using it in a comparative advertisement is acceptable, as I recall, by a doctrine that sort of mirrors what's referred to as "fair use" in copyright. Its use isn't creating confusion between the items, and it's not being passed off as if it IS Dean's Box. So legally, I'm pretty sure it's a nonstarter. Ethically, of course, it is (or at least may be) another story entirely. Preemptively, let me say in advance that if Mobility Bundle responds and disagrees with anything I've written, you should believe him and not me.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
Bob1Dog Inner circle Wife: It's me or this houseful of 1159 Posts |
Very interesting Lobo, I appreciate your take on this. Thanks!
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?
My neighbor rang my doorbell at 2:30 a.m. this morning, can you believe that, 2:30 a.m.!? Lucky for him I was still up playing my drums. |
MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
Dang. I am with Lobo. It is kind of a respect thing and you give the original package some leeway. The box Dean put out is great, I have one. The box is Deans little theater and he packaged it nicely. None of the rope effects are original with Dean, Stewart James used a box so have others. I like Dean and his family so I side with him.
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Is there anything that is not a knockoff to some degree?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
Bob1Dog Inner circle Wife: It's me or this houseful of 1159 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-05-31 03:24, MagicSanta wrote: I read someplace that one magician did the rope manipulation without a box and behind his back. Still, Madhatter's using the Dean's Box monniker in the ad isn't forgivable.
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?
My neighbor rang my doorbell at 2:30 a.m. this morning, can you believe that, 2:30 a.m.!? Lucky for him I was still up playing my drums. |
MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
I agree that it is bad form. The effect can be done behind the back, they were often done under a silk. There is so much uncredited rereleases it is nonsense. The box gives a nice place to do the effect.
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MobilityBundle Regular user Las Vegas/Boston 120 Posts |
Yeah, Lobo's right. Without a patent, there's not much doin' from a legal perspective.
If a device is patented, you can't make any device that functions in the same way that's covered by the patent. Or even without a patent, you can't lead consumers to believe that someone else made your stuff and not you. You can't use deceptive terms or terms that are "confusingly similar" to other people's trademarks in your marketing. But you CAN reverse-engineer a non-patented device. You can even refer to the product you're knocking off in your marketing, so long as it's not deceptive. So they can't CALL their product "Dean's Box," (or probably not even "Deen's Box," or the like), but at least arguably they can say "our product works just like Dean's box." (Assuming that, in fact, it works just like Dean's box.) |
balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
Is it 'worse' to advertise your product by mentioning another similar product in the advertising, or to pass yours off as an original effect when it is not?
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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MobilityBundle Regular user Las Vegas/Boston 120 Posts |
I think by far passing off an original effect is worse.
After all, calling out the competition is one way to compete. And competing is good. If you can't say "our widget is better than brand X widgets," or even "our widget is the same as brand X widgets, but cheaper," then something's wrong. |
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