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Musashi Regular user Oregon 132 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-10-09 21:09, JonTown wrote: And isn't that the scary truth. Homer knows just as much about our fate as we do. And I am not talking about the author of "The Illiad and the Oddesy". Doh! Josh
"Care for a Jelly Baby?"
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James Harrison Special user Ontario, Canada 762 Posts |
Even though I love coin magic, I'm merely trying to place the paragraph back in context.
(I tried finding the paragraph in question in his book, because I was sure it was in there, but this was all I could find of the topic in question, any one have the page number the first paragraph in discussion is from?) "I realized early on that I would not feel comfortable performing rope magic, neither would I be entirely happy with coins, and never would I be a home to Mr. and Mrs. Sponge ball." The only reason he chooses cards is because it suits the character he’s come up with. I'm not defending the fact that saying coin magic isn't 'real magic' Far from it, I'm just adding a bit more of the book for discussion. |
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Larry Barnowsky Inner circle Cooperstown, NY where bats are made from 4770 Posts |
Derren Brown dislikes mediocre magic. So do I and I would assume the same for everyone on this forum. He makes a mistake confusing style with substance. For example, there are many amateur painters who are mediocre but be shouldn't conclude that watercolors are a bad medium based on a overabundance of uninspiring art. The same could be said of music and so on. As Curtis indicated, a sponge ball appearing in a spectator's hand may be the most memorable magical event of their life if it is presented well. I think Derren Brown thinks he has all the answers and that may be useful for himself but I think it is arrogant to lecture others in what is real wonderous magic when he discards coin magic as something he has little use for. I suspect he hasn't witnessed great coin magic personally. I'll loosely quote Shakespear to sum up my point and to touch on what Jonathan has discussed.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." |
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Axman Veteran user 400 Posts |
Derren Brown is an EXCELLENT close up magician. He is also an excellent mentalist. He's qualified to say what he likes.
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cperkins Special user 700 Posts |
We must provoke Curtis Kam whenever we can so I can enjoy his thoughts and prose and thought process. Thank you Derren Brown... whoever you are. You awaken the magician/wordsmith. I Love it!!!!
cp
To see a difficult thing lightly handled gives the impression of the impossible.
(Goethe) |
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DJP Veteran user London 391 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-10-10 10:31, The Original Countelmsley wrote: I quote from page 18 of Absolute Magic, " I can only talk about my magic, and the vision of magical performance that I have....It is not my place to dictate what is right or wrong in magic- I am, I repeat, merely setting out my model..." And to say he has never seen great coin magic, well I'm sure having many friends in the world of magic that he will know many accomplished coin magicians. And secondly he has a great handling for Cigarette thru Pound Coin in Absolute Magic and a fantastic idea with Jerry Sadowitz regarding an effect with a 10p, thus making him appreciate good coin magic. Dave
David
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Larry Barnowsky Inner circle Cooperstown, NY where bats are made from 4770 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-10-11 21:10, Yavid2001 wrote: Dave, First, you didn't say whether you agreed with his assessment of coin magic. You are also making a big assumption that because he has many friends in the world of magic that he has seen great coin magic. I would argue that more likely he hasn't, but if he had, perhaps there is something else brewing which could explain his distain for coin magic. I could come up with many explanations why he feels that way but I would be just guessing, that is making assumptions myself. I can only go by the words he uses. He thinks coin magic is essentially coins moving from place to place. If that all it was, he might have a point. He is certainly entitled to his opinion and I wish him all the luck in persuading other magicians that coin magic is not wondrous enough to be performed unless separate from the great wonder inspiring work. His opinion, however, should not be validated by our silence. Have all of us who have been awed by the coin magic of Goshman, Roth, Dill, and Kam been deluded and what we were seeing was not truly baffling, wondrous magic but something akin to a finger chopper or dime and penny? Fortunately, the final judge of what is entertaining and wondrous magic is our audience and by their reaction coin magic will flourish for a long time. |
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DJP Veteran user London 391 Posts |
Yes, I am making a big assumption because I know that he has coin workers as friends, as I have a friend and fellow mentalist that has spent some time with him, and his friends and thus I am assume that he does have friends that do great coin magic... anyway this is more interesting...
Even David Neighbors admits that he has been using what Derren is suggesting. (No offence to David in any way here as he says this performance style works for him.) David when performing coins through table, he talks about the "Sweet Spot" in the table where the coin falls through. Derren (I think) believes that the audience doesn't believe in this sweet spot idea and doubts whether this is wondrous, as the audience cannot relate to it, i.e. the magical hook. It may be a great trick but that's all he sees it as. Dave
David
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Dave... et al, I get great reactions when doing magic with coins. People enjoy it. I did one coin vanish for someone yesterday and would up vanishing half a dozen coins… as the various stages of reactions registered for the folks. It was fun. I used the 'sigil->coins go away' presentation.
I agree about half-baked presentations. When fully developed... even the wildest premises play for audiences. It's about engaging their imaginations.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Curtis Kam V.I.P. same as you, plus 3 and enough to make 3498 Posts |
From what I've seen, Mr. Brown writes very well, and I think he has made it clear that his opinions are his own, and you can agree or disagree as you see fit. Not much you can say about that.
However, given what he has just written, I do know that I'd feel awful foolish performing his version of the "Cigarette through Pound Coin". No matter what we may think of the routine, it's clear he has little use for it.
Is THAT a PALMS OF STEEL 5 Banner I see? YARRRRGH! Please visit The Magic Bakery
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Jason Wethington Special user Orlando, Fl 615 Posts |
He does write well.
Derren makes a broad statement about coin magic. I think it is stereotypically accurate. The same as a statement about card magic could be- A card is selected, lost again (why?), and found again in an entertaining (hopefully) manner. Does it describe every effect, no of course not. Does it describe a great number? Absolutely, well maybe not the entertaining part, but I digress. Larry nails it I think. Derren Brown dislikes mediocre magic. Not everything I perform is meant to have a profound impact on people. Some things I do are meant to be stronger. I do not perform these types of effects together. As Derren makes clear each type of effect affects (sorry about that) the reaction of the other. His words while perhaps a bit harsh are his own and are not magic doctrine (can I get a hallelujah?!) I enjoy his writing and also thinking about the theories he proposes. I think he wanted to spur others into conversations such as this one where we examine the structure and purpose of our effects in relation to our characters. Jason |
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david_a_whitehead Inner circle USA 2122 Posts |
You guys should pose some questions to him when he visits in a few days. He may not be adept at coin magic but he is the world's best mentalist. He is miles ahead of others right now.
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magicduro Special user Las Vegas 529 Posts |
I have certainly experienced a sense of wonder from coin magic and I am sure that many of you here have too. However, it seems that card and coin magic often connotate the use of sleight of hand. Mentalism seems to transcend this connotation and helps to create a more powerful effect.
On the other hand, coin and card magic is much more visual and in that aspect can stimulate a sense of wonder that mental magic can never provide. |
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