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Slide Special user 533 Posts |
So, here is the start of the Shakespeare thread.
Why do you believe Hamlet postponed fulfilling the wishes of his father's ghost? |
LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
I think it was partly uncertainty, and partly that he had to psych himself up a bit. I mean, was a prince, sure, but he really wasn't living as one. He was a student, removed from political and military affairs. Fortinbras exists essentially to show us about Hamlet, by way of contrast. He's (Hamlet) a man of thoughts, not a man of action.
IMO, a (if not the) central theme is revenge (which has a negative connotation) as compared with justice (which has a positive connotation). The paradox is that killing Claudius would serve both purposes. I believe the pivotal moment comes where Hamlet has the chance to kill Claudius when Claudius is praying, but chooses not to, because the prayer will sent Claudius to heaven. At that moment, maybe for the only time, justice and revenge are bifurcated, and Hamlet chooses revenge. He doesn't just want to kill Claudius, he wants to usurp God's role and send him to hell forever. That's the one-step-too-far.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
When I was 21, I was obssessed with Hamlet and read it twenty or thirty times. It was because I identified with it, since I was going through a very serious, very typical life crisis of a young person about to finish college. I suffered from complete indecisiveness on some of life's most important decisions.
On side note: surrounded by critical theory in the hallways where I teach, I find that--interpretations aside--the very power of literature (and Shakespeare) is its ability to tap into our own human experiences. We often identify with what we read. It communicates. There IS meaning in the text, and the greatest authors communicate with us. Derrida was not only wrong: any 20-year-old reading Hamlet knows he was wrong. Since I don't have an interpretation of my own, I'm intrigued by Lobo's. The "one-step-too-far" seems to be the essence of the tragedy, rather than the indecision that I identified with as a young man. Indecision is not the essence of tragedy, but comedy. |
DanHarlan V.I.P. 998 Posts |
Make no mistake, there's some funny stuff in "Hamlet"... then, everybody dies.
My favorite "modern" version is the movie "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead." Totally agree with Lobo's assessment of Hamlet as an ineffective intellectual, which is why he talks so darn much about everything! We are treated to his inner dialogue at every turn... is it a ghost? For real? Does Mom know? Hey, this dead guy was my friend! Is she crazy? Am I? Should I be? Why are these guys here? Should I kill myself instead? And so on... |
LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
R & G Are Dead is ridiculously funny (and now available on DVD). Awesome screenplay, and fantastically acted by Gary Oldman and Tim Roth in the title roles, as well as Richard Dreyfus.
I've said it before in these parts, and I'll say it again...HIGHLY recommended reading is Harold Bloom's Shakespeare: The Invention of The Human, for anyone interested at all in philosophy, psychology, literature, and/or western consciousness. And I agree right back with Dan H. re: the humor in Hamlet. Personally, I find much of it funnier than any of Shakespeare's comedies.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
It's takes so long because otherwise the play would read like this
Hamlet Act 1 scene 1 Enter KING CLAUDIUS, QUEEN GERTRUDE, HAMLET, POLONIUS, LAERTES, VOLTIMAND, CORNELIUS, Lords, and Attendants KING CLAUDIUS: Though yet of Hamlet our dear brother's death The memory be green, and that it us befitted To bear our hearts in grief and our whole kingdom To be contracted in one brow of woe, Yet so far hath discretion fought with nature That we with wisest sorrow think on him, Together with remembrance of ourselves. Therefore our sometime sister, now our queen, The imperial jointress to this warlike state, Have we, as 'twere with a defeated joy,-- With an auspicious and a dropping eye, With mirth in funeral and with dirge in marriage, In equal scale weighing delight and dole,-- Taken to wife: nor have we herein barr'd Your better wisdoms, which have freely gone With this affair along. For all, our thanks. How is it Hamlet that the clouds still hang on you? Hamlet: Because Claudius You Killed my Father! HAMLET picks up a battle axe and plunges it into CLAUDIUS’ chest. CLAUDIUS dies. QUEEN GERTRUDE, POLONIUS, LAERTES, VOLTIMAND, CORNELIUS, Lords, and Attendants: All Hail King Hamlet Fin
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
LOL Payne. Yeah, I was going to bring up the whole MacGuffin thing, but I decided to go the thematic route.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
Slide Special user 533 Posts |
I have an answer for this but curious what other people think: Why did Hamlet's mother marry so quickly? and is there incestual feelings between Hamlet and his mother.
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ringmaster Inner circle Memphis, Down in Dixie 1974 Posts |
Quote: Then it would be a meladrama, not a tragedy.On 2012-06-15 14:09, Payne wrote:
One of the last living 10-in-one performers. I wanted to be in show business the worst way, and that was it.
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-06-15 14:14, ringmaster wrote: No, this version is pretty tragic. Especially when compared to the original.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-06-15 14:11, Slide wrote To retain her position as queen. Had she not married the incoming Monarch she most likely would have been exiled to some remote Provence to live out her days in solitude. Claudius married her for the validation of his undeserved position and to strenghten his claim to the throne. It also provides Hamlet with a bunch of motivation for the rest of the play. Quote:
You think?
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
Hamlet was much more decisive in the Arnold Schwarzenegger version.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCVc5TaPpe8
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
Slide Special user 533 Posts |
Denmark had an elective monarchy, so marrying quickly did not necessarily cement her in the position of queen. Normally Hamlet would have been the presumed heir to the throne, but not the guaranteed heir. So the question is why the rush since whomever was going to be the next king still had to be elected to the role by the court. Some have suggested that Claudius moved quickly to get approval before Hamlet could make it home and put his name up as king. But that doesn't make sense since surely they court would have waited for hamlet to come home.
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
The contrast between Fortinbras and Hamlet looks back to the contrast between Prince Hal and Hotspur.
In the Henry IV plays, there is I think quite a formal display of the 4 virtues (temperance, fortitude, prudence, and judgment)and we see how Prince Hal learns from negative examples of them. Hamlet was written when Shakespeare felt himself ready to write Tragedy, and therefore might represent a deeper approach to those philosophical questions. Lobo is very perceptive in seeing issues of judgment and justice. |
landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Hamlet is not indecisive, nor incapable of taking swift action; he is in fact extremely focused on his mission. A young man who the Ghostly realms decreed must set the time out of joint aright. This is a heavy burden--to know that the course of History is on your shoulders. He's seen a Ghost which is a powerful experience--but the Devil has the power to assume a pleasing shape--a mis-step here would cause chaos. He takes action to get proof. Once he has the proof, there is no doubt he will murder Claudius. He wants to fulfill his Ghostly imperative properly--it cannot be done while Claudius is praying, much as he would like to. In the incestuous sheets, that's how History must record it. He takes action, he stabs Polonius, mistakenly thinking it is Claudius behind the arras. After that he is captured and takes action to escape. Poor R and G they are no match for Hamlet. He comes back and takes on Laertes' challenge, despite being the poorer swordsman. As soon as he knows the point is envenomed too, he takes the opportunity to kill Claudius.
Why does Gertrude marry so soon? Because she had already had relations with her husband's brother. Despite her better nature, she's madly in lust with Claudius, besotted sexually. That's why she drinks from the poisoned chalice despite Claudius' outright warning to her not to drink--she can't bear the guilt. Hamlet is a tragedy not because of some tragic flaw in the protagonist, but because he was a human being caught up in the giant cycle of forces beyond any human's control. "O cursed spite that ere I was born to set it right!" What human could bear that responsibility? He knows he will be sacrificed. It wasn't part of the job description of Prince. That's one way of playing it
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All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
He put it off because the show must go on.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-06-15 12:06, Slide wrote: Which of the requests (or even suggestions) of his father's ghost did Hamlet attempt to fulfill?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Slide Special user 533 Posts |
To revenge his death
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
"If thou didst ever thy dear father love
Revenge his foul and most unnatural murder."
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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