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trickiewillie Regular user Virginia 128 Posts |
It doesn't matter whether you claim to be real, fake or make no claim at all. The fact is, we really want the audience to believe that what we do is real.
Without the audience believing that it's real, it becomes simply a puzzle to be figured out. Why are we so against exposure? Because we believe (correctly, I think) that if the audience knows it is trickery, then they won't be interested any more. Audiences want to believe it's real, even if only for the few minutes we are performing. If the audience knows it's not real, they get upset. Look at singers. If the audience finds out that a singer is merely lip-syncing at a concert and not really singing, they feel cheated. Audiences expect a performer to really do what he or she is supposed to be doing. Saying that what we do is not "real" is like letting the air out of a balloon. Why would we do that to ourselves? |
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hackmonkey Inner circle England 1093 Posts |
I think you guys are forgetting this post was directed at "mentalism" foremost. Magic I don't think needs a disclaimer. Magic is really "suspension of disbelief": you want to believe it so you let yourself believe it. But I doubt watching David Copperfield is gonna make you start practising witchcraft. Personal experience and those of others made me feel differently towards straight "psychic" style routines. I urge you guys to read blacksalt's post on a similar thread on this site a while ago. The link is above.
I feel the "I don't care" attitude is irresponsible. Joe |
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GlenD Inner circle LosAngeles, Ca 1293 Posts |
I havent checked out your links yet, Hackmonkey, but I shall. In the meantime I will throw in my 2 cents worth and try to keep it brief.
I enjoy magic, I have an interest in mentalism and I also believe there are powerful ways to get a message across through applications in the area of gospel magic. I, as well as most others I have spoken with, have difficulty with mentalism and exactly this issue we are discussing. I admit this is probably what has put mentalism on the back burner for me. In general I would tend to agree with David about not giving a disclaimer and letting each audience member process the events or happenings in their own way. Where I would give a disclaimer, every time, is in doing gospel magic performances where the message is everything and the effects or magic is a tool to assist in getting the message across in a very visual kind of way. However, performing magic purely for entertainment (I have no problem with this concept) is another thing and I think it is a wonderful way to entertain and allow folks to escape their own reality for a brief time. Those that are there are there at their own choosing and hopefully will enjoy it and have a good idea about what is real and what is not. This is where mentalism would still have a place for me. I can only see very limited uses for mentalism type of effects with regard to a gospel message, though. But for entertaining, almost silent gasps or jaw-dropping responses I think are fine. But I realize you still end up at this point where you will run into these situations where someones's belief in what you are doing is more than just a response but may involve life-changing decision making. That is a responsibility that must be considered and I don't have an answer. That is where I am at: no disclaimer in general; always a disclaimer regarding gospel magic performances. GlenD
"A miracle is something that seems impossible but happens anyway" - Griffin
"Any future where you succeed, is one where you tell the truth." - Griffin (Griffin rocks!) |
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rcad Loyal user St-Eustache 211 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-12-08 18:51, trickiewillie wrote: When you say "we," do you mean mentalists, magicians or any of the two who takes this art seriously? I take it very seriously but don't "want" the audience to think it's "real," at least, not after they leave the show. Quote:
Audiences want to believe it's real, even if only for the few minutes we are performing. I agree. There is a concept in writing that's called "suspension of disbelief" which is what we should strive for. If the audience "believes" there is really magic happening as they are watching, the performer is doing a good job. But when he also wants them to believe he actually has supernatural powers, I think he is, at the very least, on an ego trip. In my opinion, this attitude hurts the art of magic as much as exposure, and that includes mentalism even if I've read some mentalists on this forum who believe they are way above all common magicians. There have been and still are so many frauds who feed on the weak, whether because they are emotionally or intellectually unarmed against them. I am in no way implying that those who share these views on the subject are frauds. They are simply doing the same thing as frauds but believe that this is the way they should entertain. Quote:
If the audience knows it's not real, they get upset. I disagree. If the audience catches on because of poor performance, yeah, they will be disappointed just as much as paying to hear a singer who cannot hold a tune. I and many others I have spoken to, some practicing magic and some not, still enjoy magic performances (even mentalist acts) while knowing it is done through trickery. On the other hand, I know of many people who hate magic because the performers they saw wanted them to believe he actually had supernatural powers. They feel it is an insult to their intelligence and rightly so. Quote:
Without the audience believing that it's real, it becomes simply a puzzle to be figured out. Well that may well be true in some cases, but I feel it has more to do with presentation and the type of audience than disclaimers or whatever. Some people are interested in film special effects and will try to find out or at least figure out how it was done, but for the most part people are just happy to watch a good movie. They don't go home trying to understand how they got that spaceship to fly in the sky, they just remember how cool it was.... Quote:
Why are we so against exposure? Because we believe (correctly, I think) that if the audience knows it is trickery, then they won't be interested any more. Again that "we"... I hope this refers to magicians, including mentalists, who take the art of magic seriously and not just mentalists. I admit that I'm offended whenever I read condescending remarks from some so-called mentalists. I am against exposure and I know for a fact that most artists who practice magic feel the same. True, secrets must be kept secret. But in this day and age very few people who would go to a theater to watch a show would actually believe that there is no trickery behind what they are seeing. And no, the reason for this fact is not because of exposure but rather because we came out of the middle ages a few centuries ago. This elitist attitude reminds me of the one seen in many religious sects. Everybody but them is wrong about everything. Making audiences believe what we do is real may even be, for some, a way to compensate for poor performance. For example, many frauds are poor magic performers but because their audience wants to believe they have supernatural powers, they are witnessing what they "want" to witness. Or take most of the UFO photographs we've seen so far. For those who believe, they are proof, for those who don't, they are fake. But try to present a science-fiction movie meant to entertain with such lousy special effects... Will people enjoy it? No. Tell them it's a documentary and that the UFOs on screen are "real," you'll get a blockbuster until the media announces it was all special effects. My point is, I think that most of those who think magic should be presented as "real" are nostalgic and living in the past, not realizing that, at least in Occident, most people are now educated enough to know the difference between a performance and a miracle. Others who need to pretend to be what they are not outside the boundaries of the performance have, as far as I'm concerned, self-esteem problems. And that is true not only in magic but in life in general. Finally, there are also those who I feel should put more time in practicing so that they can perform without having to hide behind the "I'm doing real magic!" statement. PS: trickiewillie, I didn't mean to come down on you and none of my words are pointed directly at you. You simply expressed what I have read in different threads many times and I felt I had to reply. Please, don't take this personnaly if you don't feel it applies to you. I used your quotes only to fuel my points and could have taken quotes of many others... Whether we do magic with cards, silks, ropes, doves, numbers, present mind reading stunts, bizarre magic or shows for kids, we are all magicians! This forum is filled with knowledgable, experienced and nice people. I have felt welcomed here from the beginning but I feel that as much as mentalism is a magic speciality like many others, it is in no way above any other branch of magic. Those who claim to be mentalists and feel their speciality is above the rest are really fooling themselves more than their audiences.... Richard
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious." Albert Einstein
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trickiewillie Regular user Virginia 128 Posts |
Rcad - Richard: First, I didn't take it personally. If you said something like "you're an idiot for saying that" I would have taken it personally. But you presented intelligent points. And -- are you ready? -- I agree with you for the most part.
I haven't got time just now to respond fully, but did want to make a couple of points. My "we" was mainly mentalists. But most mentalists are, or were, or use the methods of, magicians, so I meant both. I, too, have serious problems with folks who claim to be "real psychics." And I fully believe that virtually everybody that goes to see David Copperfield or Lance Burton or any of thousands of other magicians know they are seeing tricks, not supernatural powers. But...and this was the point I was trying to make ... if audiences already know that magicians (and maybe mentalists) do tricks and not supernatural "magick," why do we get upset when they find out the specific trickiness, when the specific methods are exposed? You may have a different answer but my answer to that question is that it takes away from the "realness" of the performance. The performance must be real, or seem to be real, for the audience. Announcing that it's not real is shooting ourselves in the foot. Instead of movies, let's compare the performance of magic or mentalism to stage plays. The audience knows the play is not really real. They know they are looking at actors on a stage, not real people interacting in someone's living room or wherever. But they accept that "reality" on stage. If a piece of scenery falls, the audience is jolted back to "real" reality instead of going along with the fake reality on stage. The play must be "real" to engage the audience. By the same token, the magic must be "real" to engage the audience. If the audience knows how the tricks work, it isn't real, and the audience won't come to see us. Therefore (whew!), we must make it as real as possible when we present it. We want it to be, or to seem, real. While I agree that pretty much everyone knows magicians are really tricksters, there are plenty of people who believe mentalists are really people with supernatural powers. So, to me, mentalists have a headstart in making it real, because part of the audience believes it is "magick" not "magic tricks." Whether this is good or bad is a different topic (see hackmonkey's links to blacksalt), but, in my opinion, if we as performers openly state that we are merely doing tricks, it hurts us. Just like an actor would not come out on stage and announce that he's playing a character and that's it's just "make-believe." |
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rcad Loyal user St-Eustache 211 Posts |
Trickiewillie,
I'm glad you took my post for what it was: another point of view in this interesting debate! Quote:
On 2003-12-15 13:56, trickiewillie wrote: I agree with you all the way. Quote:
But...and this was the point I was trying to make ... if audiences already know that magicians (and maybe mentalists) do tricks and not supernatural "magick," why do we get upset when they find out the specific trickiness, when the specific methods are exposed? From that perspective, I also agree. I guess I was more concerned about people trying to make believe they have genuine psychic powers "off stage." If the audience wants to see some magic (including mentalism), we should strive to create a magical world for the duration of the show. I guess it has a lot to do with context. And yes, with the knowledge that they are seeing a "show," I also agree that a disclaimer is inappropriate for the magician as much as for the audience. I guess the problem becomes more complex when people come up to the magician or mentalist and asks how it was done or if he is using tricks to accomplish his feats. There are no easy answers to that since I don't want to "destroy what I created" but at the same time, off stage, I have a problem with lying about what really happened. My latest answer was answering with a question: "Was it magic to your eyes?" The person usually smiles and admits it was. I just smile in return and say: "Then keep that memory and that smile...I just brought some magic into your life...." I am not revealing anything but I still manage to retain the magic moment for those people. Of course, those people are just curious and baffled and find it more difficult to deal with the incomprehensible. If I were to face someone who would actually think I have supernatural powers, I would explain that what I do is entertainment and that it should not be taken at face value. When I first started doing mental tricks, for a second, someone I know thought I'd be able to figure out lotery numbers in advance! She started getting scared. I quickly told that person that what I did had nothing to do with actual supernatural powers. No more. Since then, I have performed several times for that same person and I can assure you that she still enjoys mental tricks, even with the absolute knowledge that I am NOT a psychic. So you see, trickiewillie, in the end, I think we pretty much agree on everything.... Richard
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious." Albert Einstein
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Dr_Stephen_Midnight Inner circle SW Ohio, USA 1555 Posts |
In regards to those who do tricks and claim it to be evidence of real psychic or magickal power, I personally like to apply a line Groucho Marx used in regards to exaggerating one's own autobiography:
"While there might be honor among thieves, you're just a dirty liar." Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No." Dr. Lao: "Wise answer." |
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