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WDavis Inner circle 1276 Posts |
Hey guys,
I've been curious about this and hopefully your replies can shed some light for me. "Why is there a demand for performance proof via video from certain authors/creators and not others?" Thanks |
quicknotist Special user 888 Posts |
I don't know without any more detail.
Maybe it's because some things just read as impractical. Or when some things by an author/creator don't work quite as well in practice as in theory AND there's no evidence of any kind of performance, then I understand why questions might begin to be raised. |
C.J. Inner circle There's a lotta rambling in my 2366 Posts |
In addition to quicknotist's point (which I would say is the main one):
I think the demand is usually made of the creators whose material is considered "exclusive" (either by price or quantity). I can understand how some works in existence with price tags in the multiple hundreds (and sometimes with little-to-no information about what an effect actually achieves) is going to be met with hesitation. When this material is put out by someone who is either a recluse with a mystery identity, or by someone who is represented online only by their words on forums, then the hesitation becomes questioning the integrity of the writer - Who *is* this person, and can they really do what they claim? As humans, there is much in the world that we tend to doubt until we see it with our own eyes. Mystery creators are another item on this list.
Connor Jacobs - The Thought Sculptor
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur Be fondly remembered. |
innercirclewannabe Inner circle Ireland 1597 Posts |
I think it is well known that some creators are just not good performers. The reverse of this is also true, so I am not sure why the demand for performance footage is becoming more and more the norm.
I can understand it though if buyers of a certain effect / effects, request to see it performed.
Tá sé ach cleas má dhéanann tú sé cuma mhaith ar cheann.
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parmenion Inner circle Switzerland/Zürich 3988 Posts |
Or...some people think they'll figure out and will don't have the need to buy you stuff anymore...
“I love talking about nothing. It is the only thing I know anything about.”
<BR>Oscar Wilde experimentaliste <br> <BR>Artist pickpocket Professional <BR> <BR>Looking for the best book test in French? send me a PM! |
Shrubsole Inner circle Kent, England 2455 Posts |
It's usually when someone makes a big claim about a new way of doing something that usually uses a well know method.
Like a ACAAN - "The pack is never touch ever! The number and card choice are totally free and it doesn't use XXXX and YYYY or ZZZZ." People then get sceptical and want to see a video. And yes, also so that people can work it out and save themselves buying it.
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
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brehaut Inner circle kentucky 2531 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-05-04 06:41, parmenion wrote: bingo |
Mind Guerrilla Inner circle Queens, NY 2670 Posts |
When I consider buying an effect, I see how close it comes to passing "the magic shop test."
How often has anyone gone into a magic shop and been refused a demonstration of an effect- as opposed to being called over by the guy behind the counter who insists, "You have got to see this new effect!"? If someone is hiding something, it usually means...they're hiding something. |
Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Because I am going to pay my hard earned money, that's why.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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WDavis Inner circle 1276 Posts |
This is turning out to a really interesting thread for me. Thanks everyone for your comments.
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Its one of those double-edged swords if you ask me...
when I put out AEIOU, I wasn't about to start filming/recording real readings, that (to me) is unprofessional... so I did them via email and PM on here for those that asked (which was weird, cos I always do them face to face)...so that was as far as I could go, that was comfortable to me... and the way things work in here, no matter what you do video, some will still say "well, you edited it at the critical point" - to which the sensible answer is "too right I did, some people re-watch things to try and catch the method..." then others will say "oh right, well, they were a stooge or in on it weren't they..obvious!" to which I would say "that's probably cos you didn't suss out what was going on..just cos you don't know how something is done, does not automatically mean 'stooge'". I am not bothered by a non-vid for anything, if its well written and clearly explained (i personally prefer a script, not so I can copy, but cos I can see it run like a film in my head)... sometimes I think people expect a close up shot of the dirty work as a demo, and given for free... I understand wanting proof of performance if the book or dvd is about how to improve your performance and how to deliver an effect though... or maybe if its an entire act too...that makes sense... but if its just for a single effect, I am not fussed... if its a prop, I like to see the pics beforehand if its possible... inversely, those that review stuff might want to offer up them performing what they are reviewing? so you could judge if its the effect itself, or the performer rushing through the effect, or not handling a certain element of it properly? if I bumped into anyone on here and they said "hey, can we sit down you give me a reading?" I'd be happy to though, and then show them how it can easily bleed into everything else you do...but for the gigs I do, as I do not reply on them for my major income - I do not have any need to advertise - my little network works well for me... and I fully recognise its my own little world... would be completely different if I went full-time pro though...
I've asked to be banned
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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
Some things work better than others in video in terms of the scenes and set ups. Hence you are ***ed either way when someone says "the vid sucked cuz you didn't let me see from behind / above / angles etc." because a live performance can take advantage of attention control etc. many card sleights and moves can take place just outside the view of a 1-1 observer but to the outside world it would be obvious - same from if you can see too much you get du*l real** reveals etc.
Personally, I think you need to make up your mind based on what info you have, reputations from sellers and reviewers, and also be honest about your own style and abilities. And to parmenion's comment - indeed - many videos just give the entire method away based on the experience of the viewers. My favourite purchases have actually never been based on any videos at all. In fact, most videos make me not want to buy the product. We live in a generation of "Gimme gimme gimme without any effort on my part!" kind of world it seems. Also, people seem to be growing into watching DVDs and Vids versus reading books - here comes Farenheit 451.... you think I joke... but PK Dick's stuff is all coming true. Personally, I like DVDs combined with books from performers - I do not like promo trailers/hype/etc. vids as they often don't really tell you anything except make you want to take dramimine. :) I M H O
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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C.J. Inner circle There's a lotta rambling in my 2366 Posts |
I always thought that people demanding video were wanting to see the PEOPLE, not the effects so much. The times that I've seen it demanded the way Walter is saying, it's because someone is held up as a master of the field, yet nobody except their personal friends has seen them perform. But maybe I'm just projecting...?
Connor Jacobs - The Thought Sculptor
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur Be fondly remembered. |
tboehnlein Inner circle ohio 1787 Posts |
Simple"the proof is in the pudding"
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Most thoughts offered here relate to the possible advantage of seeing a video or the performer (credibility) or the functionality of the effect/method (workability). I could offer pages on either theme based on personal experience including a Masters Degree in Educational Technology -- but doubt that anyone's view would be changed.
it is the concept of "demand" that sets my teeth on edge. I am amenable to reasoned discussion on any topic and even emotional appeals, but that moment that anyone "demands" something of me any hint of magic vanishes. Effective permission in any form is based, in part, on a concept of permission. While a certain amount of implied permission is perhaps essential for cultural interaction, it can never be considered a "right" or a condition enforced by another. I create dozens of new magic effect each year including what most consider "mentalism" effects. I offer these for a small fee for those who think something has no value unless they pay for it, but mostly gift these effect away for a simple commitment to feedback. The more I understand the performer and intended audience the better the effects I can create. Yet, I still receive "demands" that I provide a video of explanation or some personal validity. I refuse! I also do not purchase anything from a SPAM message. I appall flashing messages on my TV screen of some coming attraction, etc. I shun any message based on what I "must do" rather than offer a choice of what I might do. People cry out against "invasion of their privacy" yet daily demand things from others and succumb to the demands of others. I choose not to ever perform magic in any form "on demand" -- or sing or dance or tell as story. I choose to perform because it meets my interests or at the request of others. I am not suggesting that others follow that path, but hope that each reader might give pause to consider how much of your life is controlled by others because of what they "demand." A person's legitimate "need" might place an obligation on me. Their "greed"never does. In a society/culture with an ever increasing increasing "I want" over "I earn" you must be wary of demanding anything or allowing others to demand something of you. Nate Leipzig quipped, "I am not an organ grinder's monkey." Why are you?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
quicknotist Special user 888 Posts |
Yes. That's the way I interpreted it too.
Quote:
On 2013-05-04 19:21, C.J. wrote: |
brehaut Inner circle kentucky 2531 Posts |
There are some people who demand a demo and there are many legitimate reasons the performer may not want to. At the end of the day if a buyer will only buy a product where there is a demo than that is their right. However, I get frustrated when they bully the creator to post the demo by repeated requests and then start alleging the effect does not exists, etc. Its really quite simple if a demo is important to you then only buy when there is one(and run the risk of missing out on some incredible effects)but don't insist over and over that one be put up and do not make unfounded accusations simply because a demo is not offered.
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DWRackley Inner circle Chattanooga, TN 1909 Posts |
Wow, Funsway, you and I think alike on SO many things!
To the group: Just a thought about the magic shop analogy, having worked in a magic shop (my first “for pay” job). Demonstrators LOVE to see new people walk into the shop. For one thing, it gives us the chance to show off the cool new stuff we’ve been working with. It’s also a way to maybe make a sale or two, duh. We’ll even do more than one or two more new cool things for a likely “prospect”, but soon, if no money is appearing, the free show eventually begins to wind down. One of the main differences between a video and a magic shop performance is repeatability. In a magic shop, if you ask “Can I see that again”, the demonstrator is going to (hopefully) use his on-site judgment to determine your motive. I have repeated a trick before, if I think the guy is trying to see how it will fit in with his skill level, his current “repertoire”, etc, but if he’s just trying to catch me, then as they say, “Moving on…” With a video, you can play it over and over and over (tell me you haven’t done that!), and possibly “see” something you didn’t notice the first (few dozen) times. It’s my understanding this is why many GOOD mentalists don’t make tapes of their performances available to the public. While I can understand a genuine need to see an effect performed “real” and in the wild, sort of a proof-of-life thing, with video you need to be so much more careful about exposure. We ARE dealing with secrets here. The real issue (IMO) is trust. The legitimate customer is concerned about value and usability. The responsible seller is concerned about protecting both his creativity and the longevity of his product. One of the reasons the Café is still so valuable amidst all of the exposure sites, is that reputation is the most important product ANY of us have. I have personal experience with a few, and it’s shown me some excellent folks (and some bad), but my trust goes much farther than those few, because I can see the opinions of others here, my “network” has expanded, and I have some idea of what to expect from those people I HAVEN’T transacted with before. I can believe they’d only sell a quality product, and hope they’d trust that my only motive for seeing a video is to figure out whether it’s something I can actually use, not to learn a cheap secret or two. Hmmm, did I just restate the obvious? But like Funsway, I would strongly resist a “demand” for anything.
...what if I could read your mind?
Chattanooga's Premier Mentalist Donatelli and Company at ChattanoogaPerformers.com also on FaceBook |
mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Seems we are talking about two completely different things. Some are talking about demo videos of effects on the market. Others are talking about actual performance videos of mentalists they've heard about but have never seen.
I agree with the problems noted above about demo videos. A similar problem exists with performance videos, that is why most of us are very careful to "work the cameras" when we appear on television or when we're being recorded. That said, performance videos are among my most important publicity tools. |
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