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Matt Adams Special user Harvest, AL 827 Posts |
Ok, so I put 3 coats of flat black paint on this prop I'm working on. I'm learning how to do EVERYTHING - so you need to talk to me like I'm 5. Assume I know nothing.
So the paint is on...now I'm trying to put on one or two coats of varnish. I tested my first coat on the bottom of the prop... 1) Do I need to sand the final coat of black paint before the first coat of varnish? If I do that, then it scrapes the "finish" and makes the black paint look a little gray/white because of the sand paper coming off. Anyway, hope this question is clear enough. 2) When I apply the varnish, it looks milky white. So now my cabinet is starting to look milky white and I can see the roller brush lines. Do I sand this down too? I've been hand sanding my paint with 400 grit as a "finisher". Is that right? Any tips here for how to apply varnish correctly?
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
If you want a flat black effect, don't varnish it. Any topcoat you put on it will catch light and turn the flat into a non-flat finish.
Just put the flat black on it and get it as smooth as you can. Hope that helps.
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
I agree with George.
You should always sand between coats of paint. Why your are sanding is to roughen the surface so the next coat will adhere, and to "make level" the surface of the paint. When sanding between coat of paint, taking that you sanded your bare wood totally level, you should use 600 wet and dry sandpaper for sanding between coats. You can use it wet or dry. Just make sure the paint is totally dry. Always wipe sanded paint with a tack cloth or slightly wet cheese cloth, depending on whether you sanded wet or dry. When painting with flat black paint always stir the paint wall, as it has a grit type of material in the paint, that has to be mixed well. Otherwise, you may get shiny spots. So sand all the varnish off and you should be okay. I recommend you get a orbiting hand sander, they only cost $25.00. Goes faster and does an excellent job. |
Matt Adams Special user Harvest, AL 827 Posts |
Ah I get it. Thanks guys! That's very helpful.
Ok, baring the fact you wouldn't normally put varnish on...let's assume I want to anyway just for this project. How would I do that properly?
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Do a Google search for "varnish over paint" and "varnish over flat paint", and you'll get lots of input from people who have done it.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
I really don't know why you think you should put varnish over flat paint. The varnish will not add anything to the finish, and I believe they will reject each other.
The only thing you might be able to do is put some matt clear plastic paint on the paint. I don't guarantee it will not reject each other, but you can try. It will bring up the flat black though, so you will lose the flat effects of using flat paint. But remember you should never mix types of paint. Lacquer and enamel, so you will get all kinds of result you don't want. If you are trying to get tough painted surface (although varnish is not necessarily tough paint) that resist scratches, then use epoxy paint. It is a paint that is water resistant and is very tough surface paint. It is available in flat black. It is very hard to work with, as it sets very fast, so you have to work quickly. I would suggest spray epoxy over brush as it is easier to work with. |
Matt Adams Special user Harvest, AL 827 Posts |
Thanks again guys! Varnish isn't what I was using in the first place. Mix up of terms. I was using a polyurethane coat. Good tips all around.
The reason I'm "testing" the clear coat is to get practice in using it in the first place. I'm actually painting a display case (all flat black) as practice and then I wanted to put a clear coat on it, also as practice in dealing with clear coat finishes. The whole project is more or less a practice project for an actual build which will come later. So the final finish isn't that important whether it's shiny or not, but it shouldn't look streaked - which it currently does due to the clear coat for some reason.
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AGMagic Special user Cailf. 775 Posts |
I had a similar problem recently applying a water base polyurethane over an oil base stain on a headboard that I built for my son. The products are from the same manufacturer and are supposed to be compatible. I had white or bleached streaks in several places and had to sand off the finish in those areas and start again. I have not had this problem with oil based poly. What are you using?
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Matt Adams Special user Harvest, AL 827 Posts |
Ooooh, I need to check. No clue. I didn't know I had to check "compatibility" when buying this stuff. Good to know. I'll let you all know soon.
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Matt Adams Special user Harvest, AL 827 Posts |
How would I know if it's water or oil based? I'm using a rustoleum polyurethane with a satin finish for the clearcoat. The paint is a Valspar Duramax primer and paint in one. It's water-based. But I don't know about my clearcoat.
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CJRichard Special user Massachusetts 542 Posts |
If it says on the can you can clean up with water, it's water base. If it says you need to clean the brush in mineral spirits it's oil base.
You may be getting streaks if it's drying fast and you're brushing over it again. Try to go relatively quickly and evenly, but once you've coated the surface evenly, move on and don't go back over a part that's already starting to dry. Also since polyurethane was originally all oil base, it's not usually labeled as such. Water base is newer and usually clearly says water base. But the cleaning instructions will tip you off in either case.
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Ray Tupper. Special user NG16. 749 Posts |
You've got to stop mixing systems.
Oil based this,acrylic based that,pre-cat the other. There are numerous problems caused when mixing systems,due to the different mediums which bind them. Acrylic... water emulsion based,Oil..pretty obvious,etc,etc. For example,when applying an acrylic lacquer over an oil based stain,(as already mentioned)if the stain hasn't completely dried,you'll get a problem/reaction,with the oil based solvents caught between the substrate and the acrylic lacquer. These are non-compatible unless completely cured. There's also the problem of mixing a hard/brittle finish,with a softer more malleable finish,eg,shellac,polyurethane. You can apply the softer finish over the more brittle finish,but not vice versa.It'll be ok for a time,but in the long run,it'll craze. Being from England,I can't comment on the makers named stuff here,Rustoleum,Valspar,etc,as I know naff all about them.One of the reasons why I keep away from such topics here.But the simple fact is this,not all systems work together. Why are you using matt black,under a satin finish,to achieve a satin finish?Use a satin black,less hassle!The *Gritty stuff*,that Bill Hegbli referred to,is matting agent.As for the 600 wet and dry between coats,that's far too much fannying about for a satin finish.320/400 grit dry,would be suffice.
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
When Ray speaks on the topic of finishes, wise men listen. If you don't believe me, look at his profile and see what he does for a living.
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The Magic Company |
Matt Adams Special user Harvest, AL 827 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-06-01 18:15, CJRichard wrote: Excellent! Thanks man! I think I pretty much did exactly this - probalby didn't coat it fast enough and then streaked over it. The parts that are just hazy are because of the mixed systems, I believe. Learned a ton here - and that's precisely why I was doing this... I guess I can explain my project now that I have a few moments. I want to build some of my own props - duh - but don't know what I'm doing (clearly). So I thought a good first project would be metamorphosis. Learned basic routing and some circular saw stuff. Put together a monstrous box with a terrible trap and it's WAY too heavy anyway - the entire thing being made from 3/4 inch plywood. Sheesh...but I learned some things. Next I bought Gerry Franette's course on illusion building and watched throught the DVDs. Now I felt dangerous enough to attempt a project for real - so instead of building an illusion that would be terrible quality (since I'm new), I decided to first try my hand at something that didn't matter as much - A DISPLAY CASE for my magic stuff. So I came up with this design in my head and solved lots of problems (no clue if it's how others have done things, but it's working so far). Anyway, the point of the cabinet was to be very "see-through" and low profile in that regard. So I practiced cuts, more routing, and working with a lot of new materials like plexiglass, wood putty / sanding, paints, and clearcoat. I used a lot of "standard" things you'd find on a magic prop - flat black paint, piano hinges (for my doors), etc. It's basically a "bogus" project that you'd never do for a display case, but it is a practice project for me - that's the whole point. So while I didn't care whether my finish was flat or glossy or satin or whatever, I didn't even KNOW that you were supposed to "not mix systems" - never heard of that (or at least, if it's on the course, I missed it - definitely need to rewatch that set anyway). ANYWAY, if I screwed up my display cabinet, it doesn't matter so much since it's going in my magic room and not on stage with me. But I learned a ton. I'm not done, but getting closer. In the middle of my project, my wife wanted me to make a "prop" (for lack of what to actually call it) for my daughters' dress up clothes. I've got a picture on my facebook profile so if you "friend" me there you probabaly can see it. Knocked it out in about 5 hours and it looks great. It was definitely an easy project involving just 1/2 inch plywood, a wood dowel, screws, and paint. I cut the wood myself after coming up with a quick design based on a photo I saw online. Anyway, looks great now and is in their room. Easy project, but a confidence booster. Now neighbors are asking me to do work for them. Uh...I like it...but heck, it takes a LOT of time. One thing I've learned is that if I REALLY wanted a prop built, it's WAAAAAAAY easier to just pay a top builder! lol. But I have some ideas I'd like to try myself and don't want the info out there for the public yet. Anyway, that's my entire background for building and am looking forward to learning more from the workshop! I need to now buy a house with some room for props and a workshop...lol. I'm working in my driveway currently! Now THAT is a slow process.
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Matt Adams Special user Harvest, AL 827 Posts |
Ok...looked up my stuff for real - went by memory last time
Flat black latex is by OLYMPIC - its water based Looked at my polyurethane and it's also water based. So I guess my streaking came due to slow application maybe
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Ray Tupper. Special user NG16. 749 Posts |
Matt.Just a quick couple of ideas for you to try out.
Make sure the base is fully cured before applying the varnish. Abrade as already mentioned. Seeing as the two mediums are of the same acrylic nature,put a small amount of the black into the varnish,maybe 10%,and mix thoroughly. Apply this second coat with a small sponge roller.The type used to apply gloss paint. Immediately run a fine synthetic bristled flat brush very,very lightly over the varnish in even strokes,from side to side.The brush should just be laid onto the varnish at an angle with just the weight of the brush itself.all you are doing really is pulling the brush,applying no pressure at all. I'd personally use a 2" Purdy. Now,after abrading,go with a top coat of the clear varnish,maybe thinned a touch with potable water,and apply the same way as the second coat. You can get a proper retarder thinner specifically for acrylic varnishes/lacquers,but I can't begin to give you a makers name in the states,over here in England I use Sayerlac by Arch chemicals for that product.It's made in Italy,so they may export to the states as well as Uk. I only mention the retarder,as it gives you that bit of extra time to faff about,especially when it's a hot day and the lacquer is flashing off quicker. Messing about on a couple of sample pieces wouldn't do any harm,as it'll get you used to the whole operation.
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TheRaven Special user 597 Posts |
This is what I do - your mileage may vary...
When you sand between coats it is partially for adhesion but also you are trying to remove any imperfections (tiny bumps from dust and other particles) in the surface before the next coat. Sand lightly and feel for bumps. Purchase Tack Cloths in the paint department of your hardware store and use these to remove all traces of dust after you sand between coats. Completely unfold the tack cloth and then bunch it up in a ball and use it that way. Rebunch periodically to bring fresh tack material to the surface. |
Matt Adams Special user Harvest, AL 827 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-06-08 11:22, TheRaven wrote: This is what I've started practicing as well. Thanks
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