On 2013-05-27 23:44, mastermindreader wrote:
Okay. Sorry to see you've reverted to the "socialist" name calling.

BTW- it's MY America too, you know.

On 2013-05-30 01:02, mastermindreader wrote:
Likewise, Bob. But those posts are still up. They're on the No Vacation Nation thread.

On 2013-05-27 23:15, Bob1Dog wrote:

Quote:

On 2013-05-27 01:07, tommy wrote:
So I will try with this thread to defund some of the stupid notions regarding preconceptions of what SOCIALISM and SOCIAL PROGRAMS (pensions, healthcare, education, etc) are because they are 2 different things. Yes, I know this won't be about american government spending and debt but it is about government spending on a general level throughout the western world on what is important to having a modern society. So please leave the thread HERE.

So lets start off with some differentiation.

A social program =/= socialism and a lot of social programs =/= socialism.
Socialism =/= Communism though it is a way which facilitates communism entering and taking power.
Government spending =/= a social program.
welfare state =/= socialist state.
European nations =/= socialist nations.

Most social programs that you see today.. and most laws that are passed with a social idea in mind, are the product of LIBERALS, CONSERVATIVES and NATIONALISTS. So lets see who figured them out first:
(in the mid-to-late 1800s)
Universal healthcare -> conservative.
Disability and accident pensions -> conservative
Social security -> conservative
These and a few more were the inventions of Otto Von Bismark of Germany. The first time they were ever made in the world. Amazing isn't it? A conservative figured them out. You know why they can NEVER be called SOCIALIST measures? Because Bismark held socialism in such disdain that he enacted ANTI-SOCIALIST laws the first chance he got.

Lets move on. Early XXth century. In England.
Free school meals -> liberal
Shorter work hours and job security -> liberal
health insurance -> Liberal
Agricultural subsidies -> liberal
Public libraries -> liberal.
Coal mining regulations -> liberal

Lets not forget who enacted social reforms for equality and such. How about voting rights for women. Did the socialists do it? No, they didn't. It was either liberals or conservatives depending on the country... liberals did it in Finland first if I remember correctly in early XXth century.

So. Socialism hasn't give us nothing in terms of free healthcare, social security, pensions, state sponsored education, shorter work hours, job security, contract negotiation etc. It did popularize the notion of unions, especially public sector unions.... and its big brother, communism, popularized the idea of "food stamps" or vouchers for people to collect their quotas of food and supplies by standing hours in line. But other than that. No. Nothing.

So to call such programs socialist programs is to do what the socialists want you to do and that is to give them credit for good things that they did NOT give to the world. So don't do it.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/government......ams.html

Struck a nerve did I? Sorry but you don't convince me. Nor do I convince you. Not my problem, but yours.

I don't need convincing, I pay taxes and see the waste in our American social programs as they become strangling to our economy. I don't want my America to be like your UK and Europe. I like my America perfectly well the way it has been since post WWII up until the latter part of the 20th century. I'll give y'all socialists credit though, you have a lot of patience and have been working on us for decades. And you'll win. The US will be a socialist country and I'll happy to be dead at the time, much to your pleasure, I'm sure.

Americans have given more than 650,000 lives supporting y'alls on that side of the pond and other places through history and all you can do is condemn us for the liberties we enjoy. I'm sick and tired of it. And I'm sick and tired or my country fighting the battles of other countries. Y'all Brits would be speaking German if it wasn't for the Yanks as much as you hate to hear that.

When you can see that from my American perspective, I'll listen to you, but you don't have a clue friend. And I'm done here. As you asked in your first paragraph, I'm leaving the thread HERE! Now you can continue with your blather. I'm gone.

You really need to get your facts straight. The war you claim to have won for us would have been won anyway without your intervention. Russia would have done the job quite nicely thanks before you came in right at the end to claim the credit.

But you've been given duff history lessons I expect so you believe what you're told. Similiar to your War of Independence that was won for you by the French & the Spanish. The best you could muster back then was to childishly throw tea into the water

Anyway, all this crap happened years ago but I guess you can hold a grudge if you like.