On 2013-09-01 05:14, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
The thing is this, I believe they have and still do visit us, incognito.

I have as much or dare I say, more 'proof' for this argument than religion has for their gods and demons, heaven and hell. If bright intellectual people can believe those, I can believe this.

And... Since I say they're unseen to us due to their technological advancement, I can't show them to you.

On 2013-09-01 10:20, Dannydoyle wrote:
Do yo really want a more advanced civilization finding us?

I mean why don't you check with any native population about how they feel about being discovered and get back to me? Let me know how it worked out for the Incas or the Apache or for the Aborigines.

Fact is the history of discovered places is not really great. Be careful what you wish for.

On 2013-09-01 05:14, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
You miss my point by picking on just the faster than light thing...

On 2013-09-01 12:06, Slide wrote:

Why do we have to decide at all. Why not wait until there is evidence? Otherwise you are just spinning your wheels.

On 2013-09-01 10:20, Dannydoyle wrote:
Do yo really want a more advanced civilization finding us?

I mean why don't you check with any native population about how they feel about being discovered and get back to me? Let me know how it worked out for the Incas or the Apache or for the Aborigines.

Fact is the history of discovered places is not really great. Be careful what you wish for.

On 2013-09-01 10:20, R.S. wrote:

Quote:

On 2013-09-01 05:14, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
The thing is this, I believe they have and still do visit us, incognito.

I have as much or dare I say, more 'proof' for this argument than religion has for their gods and demons, heaven and hell. If bright intellectual people can believe those, I can believe this.

And... Since I say they're unseen to us due to their technological advancement, I can't show them to you.

Hi Pakar,

The credibility of someone else's beliefs in a particular subject should not be a factor in forming a belief in an unrelated subject.

Anyway, I am curious to know why you believe we are being visited incognito.


Ron
:)

On 2013-09-01 10:51, MobilityBundle wrote:

Quote:

On 2013-09-01 05:14, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
You miss my point by picking on just the faster than light thing...

I think I get your point. If I understand it right, your point is: the (putative) limitations that we currently experience about the universe may not really be true limitations at all. Eventually, we may overcome them. And similarly, an advanced alien race may have already overcome them, just as we might one day. Moreover, an alien race may look nothing like us. So our limitations (life span, radiation sensitivity, etc.) may not be limitations for them.

To be sure, that's a valid point in a lot of ways. I'll call those limitations "engineering limitations." For example, back in the '80s, we couldn't build an iPod. Because there was an engineering limitation: we didn't have the technology to store that much music on a small enough device that could fit in one's pocket. But obviously, technology progressed from at least two directions: first, the mp3 format was invented and allowed us to encode music in a way that required relatively little space; and second, advances in hard drives increased their capacity, reduced their power requirements, etc. Presto, we get an iPod 20 years later.

But if you asked someone in the '80s, nobody would say an iPod is IMPOSSIBLE. Maybe they'd say it's impractical. There might even be wildly varying estimates about how far off the technology was. (100 years? 10 years?)

On the other hand, other limitations are indeed "true" limitations, not engineering limitations. The local light speed limit is one. The age of the universe (or the age of stars/galaxies) is another -- that puts a limit on how old even the oldest ancient civilization might be. The uncertainty principle is another -- there's provably no engineering solution to that. And perhaps the biggest true limitation is the collection of all empirical data we have observed to date.

So, for example, none of this rules out warp drives. That's a theoretical possibility, but (for us) there are engineering limitations that we currently don't know how to solve. But we know for example, that it takes "exotic matter" to create warp drives (or worm holes, for that matter). Of course, we've never observed any of this exotic matter anywhere in the universe, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. However, from our observations of the universe, we can put a limit on the amount of exotic matter that exists. It's... low.

Similarly, although we don't know how to build a warp drive or worm hole, we know that, necessarily any transport mechanism that distorts spacetime as a means of travel produces huge blasts of energetic radiation at the destination, on a magnitude that's at best, impossible to hide, and more likely just outright destructive. Insofar as we haven't seen such local blasts, we can rule out visitation by aliens using warp drive or such technology.

And that's kind of my point. Speaking a little metaphorically or Rumsfeldian, there are (1) the aspects of the universe we know, (2) the aspects of the universe we know we don't know, and (3) the aspects of the universe we don't know that we don't know. My point is that the breadth of (1) constrains the breadth of (2), and both constrain the breadth of (3).

On 2013-09-01 12:06, Slide wrote:
"Why don't/do you believe in life outside of Earth? Please elaborate as much as possible. don't be offended but to me anyone who believes we're alone is arrogant."

Why do we have to decide at all. Why not wait until there is evidence? Otherwise you are just spinning your wheels.

I've never understood why people waste so much time worrying about things that can't be proved and may never be proved. Aliens, or no aliens, it may be a fun intellectual exercise for some but it's a complete waste of time.

On 2013-09-01 10:30, mastermindreader wrote:
You normally can't see them because they look just like us. But, if you know what to look for you can identify them. (Their pinky fingers are straight and don't bend.)

On 2013-09-02 08:36, Russell Davidson wrote:

Can't we just enjoy a beautiful garden without the need to believe there's fairies at the end of it?