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ClumsyMagician New user 10 Posts |
I've been into magic since the age of 10 and started purchasing professional tricks at the age of 13.
I'm now 30 years old but to be honest I only practise on and off, hence I've posted in the "new to magic" section. As a youngster all my good card tricks used gaffed cards, but now I'm really starting to appreciate tricks that use regular cards. Here's my issue though. Lots of my tricks use double lifts and the Elmsley Count. I can do these swiftly and smoothly, but I don't believe my handling looks natural. For example, when I double lift I'll do so with the biddle grip, which isn't the way someone would usually turn a card over. My Elmsley Count is ok but I do it from the finger tips - in reality when you count or deal cards you'd do it from the palm of your hand. The trouble is, I'm kind of stuck in my ways and when I try new methods I just can't seem to make them work so I go back to the way I'm familiar with. I see videos of people doing the DL by peeling the cards off the top of the deck and even holding the two cards along one edge with just their finger tips - whenever I do this the two cards separate slightly and it becomes obvious what's going on. What should I do? |
lcwright1964 Special user Toronto 569 Posts |
I think if it is done smoothly and with confidence it will look perfectly natural, even if a move deviates from the "natural' way of doing things. I have been watching a lot of Michael Ammar, who uses the DL of his teacher, Dai Vernon, almost exclusively. This involves stabilizing and pulling over the double with the right fingers, crimping the double concave upwards between left thumb and fingers so they stay together, and flipping the two from the inner right corner with a stropping motion--basically rotating the right hand outward at the wris. No one deals off a card that way, but Ammar makes it look smooth and it fits in with his overall handling of the deck. Similarly, Ammar's handling of an Elmsley count in one trick I've watched looks completely natural, but the count is in context--his handling of the cards up to that point puts him in the position of doing the Elmsley the traditional finger-tip way, and it looks fine. That said, I have cultivated my own preferences. I more or less mastered the push-off DL from Expert Card Technique when I was a kid, and not that I have proper hand size it comes back naturally--indeed, I can't navigate the Dai Vernon to save my life. Also, there apparently IS a way to conduct an Elmsley from mechanic's grip, and I would like to learn it.
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ClumsyMagician New user 10 Posts |
Thanks for your reply, I'm not going to lose sleep over the Elmsley Count for the time being but I'd love to be able to do the push off double lift instead of lifting the cards in a biddle type grip.
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motown Inner circle Atlanta by way of Detroit 6127 Posts |
Do you ever attend lectures or conventions? Those are good opportunities to hook up with more advanced card handlers who can help you with your technique.
"If you ever write anything about me after I'm gone, I will come back and haunt you."
– Karl Germain |
Bulla Special user Honolulu, HI 674 Posts |
It will take longer for you to learn different techniques since you need to break the habit of doing the old ones but it will come eventually. Investing in Daryl's Encyclopedia of Card Sleights might be a good choice to help you along your way.
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ClumsyMagician New user 10 Posts |
No I haven't as of yet - that said I've been out of action for many years. I would really like to improve my technique but it's a bit daunting as it's like I've learnt to ride a bicycle but now need to learn to ride it all over again a different way!
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C_Biskit New user United States 82 Posts |
I think that an Elmsley Count looks prefectly natural from the fingertips. Like you are trying to show as much of the card as possible and not trying to hide anything. Just a thought.
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David Fillary Special user 662 Posts |
I had a really bad double lift for ages, but it was safe. While I was learning a better way, I still reverted back to my old trusted way when it came to performance. However, over time I became more confident using the other (and not worrying so much about the card slipping). One thing to note is that the cards can separate a tiny bit, as long as you correct it straight away and you aren't drawing attention to the double lift.
So I suggest you start learning a new method right away. You may not use it for a while, but it will be there when you need it! |
ClumsyMagician New user 10 Posts |
Thanks for all your replies. May I post up a couple of videos to show my efforts so far?
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Wizard of Oz Inner circle Most people wish I didn't have 5150 Posts |
When you think about it, no lay person ever holds a deck and turns over the top card, nor do they count a small packet of cards for any reason. I'm doubting if anyone will ever notice your grip.
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
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lcwright1964 Special user Toronto 569 Posts |
I have been working on some tricks for the first time in decades and today tried them out on my wife, who doesn't particularly like card tricks (she'd prefer I work on coin magic) and isn't easily wowed. In general she viewed my card control moves--double undercuts, kick-outs, and false cuts, mostly--with scepticism, and she pointed out that it looked like I was doing something fishy even if she wasn't sure what it was. However, in Red Hot Mama I did a DL that was so rough that spy satellites could see the card separation from space. But my wife didn't seem to notice and was genuinely surprised to see the different-coloured card turned over as (apparently) hers. Likewise with the Dunbury Aces. There is no doubt that there is nothing natural about how the cards are turned to allow for a drop switch (which for me always seems so halting and heavy that I am amazed I don't get caught.) Still, my hard-to-impress spouse was completely convinced that her selected card had already been dealt down and so she was quite surprised to see it mysteriously substituted by an Ace. I really think there is something to be said about presentation, misdirection, and this whole persistence of memory thing. If we do the ostensibly unnatural as naturally as possible and say with utmost confidence that that face down card we just laid is indeed the six of diamonds just seen face up on the top of the deck, the magic can indeed happen even in the more cynical viewer's mind.
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Maxy Special user 636 Posts |
Congrats you passed wife's test this time
Quote: On 2014-01-07 16:18, lcwright1964 wrote:
My artificial intelligence designs:
https://instagram.com/9picks |
Bulla Special user Honolulu, HI 674 Posts |
Quote:
On 2014-01-04 07:43, ClumsyMagician wrote: Feel free to post. Just make sure you aren't flashing or exposing anything in the video. This is still a public forum. After you make 50 posts then you can posts vids like that in the Secret Sessions forum. |
airztonne New user 85 Posts |
Calling yourself a/the clumsy magician is already bad - Choose something that will make you feel good/proud or sound cool
(You just looked at my username, didn't you?) Also, go ahead, this forum is to help each other so don't worry if it looks bad to you, we'll try our best to help you! |
Waller New user 34 Posts |
I have to state the obvious, using cards that are just broken in and not too old helps. I find that newer cards stay together better on my DLs and ECs.
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BenSaunders New user 5 Posts |
I often find myself guilty of this offense... practicing and polishing moves that look smooth and flashy, but really only make my movements more suspiciously unnatural. For example, I used to incorporate all sorts of fancy double lifts in my performances, until I realized that these looked neat, but drew unnecessary attention to what should be simple, normal movements. I'm still a great admirer of flourishes, and displays of dexterity, but only when the moment is right and when doing so doesn't diminish the deceptiveness of the magic.
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lcwright1964 Special user Toronto 569 Posts |
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On 2014-01-25 20:17, BenSaunders wrote: I am picking up in much of my reading that some moves should be used sparingly and as a means to an end, not the end itself. For example, I think Hugard asserted somewhere that the DL should not be overused, probably for the reasons you suggest. I confess I was practicing my DL in front of my five-year-old boy with good technique and essentially showing it off as a colour change. He wasn't wowed by the mystery, and said, "The other card is underneath." Note to self--don't show off the DL! |
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