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Slim King Eternal Order Orlando 18012 Posts |
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
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On Dec 19, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote: I have no idea. Do you? I imagine bank robbers around the world are far more homogeneous and like minded than terrorists are. I think nearly all bank robbers have the same motive. Whereas there must be hundreds of motivations driving different terrorist groups around the world. So I would guess that incentives you mention might work with some groups of terrorists, and not others.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
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On Dec 19, 2014, acesover wrote: A problem with this type of discussion is that people often argue different things based on different assumptions. For instance, there are people who would argue that torture is always wrong as a moral issue; there are people who would claim that in this situation, it would not be immortal to torture, and there are people who would argue that this particular situation doesn't pose a moral problem, but it poses a practical one because approving of torture would lead to situations where someone who is not guilty or doesn't have the knowledge you're looking for would eventually be tortured. And there are people who think that "torture is torture," while there are others who think that certain acts would be acceptable and others would not. There are also people who oppose it on practical grounds ("It doesn't work"), and people who profess to oppose it on practical grounds, but who wouldn't support it even if they knew it did work. I apologize in advance for citing Alan Dershowitz, but I'm inclined to agree with him as a philosophical matter regarding the (moral) acceptability of torture: I think that certain forms of torture, at least, are acceptable if and only if two criteria are met: 1) The person being tortured has information that will present a great harm; and 2) The person being tortured caused (or at least partially or maybe substantially caused) that harm. As a practical matter, though, I think the costs (torture of persons who don't meet at least one of the above criteria) outweigh the benefits (harms prevented), and I think there are other costs as well, particularly I think that living in a society that explicitly embraced an "acceptable" level of torture would move people further along the cynical and morally apathetic path that started (or was greatly accelerated) by the Watergate Scandal and the Vietnam War. I think it's good for society to think we're the good guys, to the extent possible (and to the extent true). I do think that torture "works," and that some of the arguments put forth against that proposition are pretty funny. One that's appeared here in NVMS was something like, "If I were being tortured, I'd admit to anything. It just doesn't work." Well, that's kind of the definition of it working...if you know where the bomb is, you'll admit to it. Now, one might say, "Yes, but if I don't know where the bomb is, I'll just make stuff up." Well, if you don't have the information being sought, then no information-gathering technique works, so that argument is just as good as an argument against questioning suspects - if they have no information, you won't get any information from them. But ultimately, I don't think you need to take the position that it doesn't work (you CAN take that position, of course; there's stuff out there to support either position on whether or not it works) to argue against it. IMO, there are only two really good arguments against it. 1) The purely moral argument: It's just wrong, period; and 2) Even if there are some circumstances in which it would be morally acceptable, there's no way to adopt a torture model that ensures that those circumstances will be met, and when it's wrong, it's really wrong.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
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On Dec 19, 2014, balducci wrote: I will put my post with the question here again. Maybe you can give an answer instead of going round the mulberry bush. Definitely not an attempt at humor. But if we had a terrorist who knew of this impending attack and we knew there was some sort of attack planned and he was involved and had information to prevent this would you say that torturing him would not be the proper thing to do if it saved those children? That is exactly what I meant. Now tell me if my thoughts were correct or incorrect in saving those children. Is it more humane to let those children die or not torture one terrorist? I am not interested in your "maybes or what ifs" just answer the question. One terrorist or a hundred plus children? Oh wait...its a war crime. Oh wait it is a hundred plus innocent children. Do the math. Here I will separate the question from the post so you are not confused.: But if we had a terrorist who knew of this impending attack and we knew there was some sort of attack planned and he was involved and had information to prevent this would you say that torturing him would not be the proper thing to do if it saved those children? This question canbe answered with a yes or a no. I do not believe in torture for punishment. Only for information gathering. Torture for punishment is unforgivable. I am referring to the torture of inflicting physical pain.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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rockwall Special user 762 Posts |
I find it interesting that many of those who are against anything that they consider remotely to be a type of torture don't have a lot of issue with dropping a missile and killing a guy from a drone with 0 due process.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Thank you for making it clear that you do not oppose torture.
If WE hung people for it after WWII, it's torture, however "remote" you seem to think that waterboarding, et al, are. |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
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On Dec 19, 2014, mastermindreader wrote: I made it quite clear in another thread of my feelings of using torture for the saving of innocent lives. I also said when it should be used and when it should not be used. It should be used for information to save lives of innocents including children. It should not be used as a form of punishment or revenge. You seem to feel the torture of a terrorist is not justified but would rather see those innocents slaughtered. That is your choice. I can live with my decision I hope you could love with yours if push came to shove.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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rockwall Special user 762 Posts |
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On Dec 19, 2014, mastermindreader wrote: Thank you for making it clear that you do not oppose drone attacks against potentially innocent victims. (Or at least as clear as my opposition to 'torture' you seem to have surmised. I swear, your mindreading just gets worse and worse as time goes by.) |
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
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On Dec 19, 2014, acesover wrote: It can NOT be answered PROPERLY with a simple yes or no. In the circumstances you describe, I would support torture after other lesser measures were tried and failed. But the important caveat is that the circumstances you describe only exist in a fantasy world made up scenario. The real world is never that plain and simple. That is why I oppose torture in the real world that you and I both live in.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
Definitely a slippery slope as we do not know the value of the information until obtained.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Is it safe?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
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On Dec 19, 2014, tommy wrote: Marathon Man
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
I've said most of what I want to say about this subject, so I'll just add one more thing and then shut up.
Along with the moral and effectiveness arguments against torture, there is another matter that I alluded to when I posted in the other thread an article about the Vietcong experience with using torture. What they learned was this: there is no way to institute torture on an "official" basis without thoroughly corrupting the judicial and enforcement systems. It inevitably becomes a political weapon used against domestic political and personal enemies. A cycle of fear and intimidation is perpetuated within the ranks of the torturers themselves as the torturers soon become the tortured.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Slim King Eternal Order Orlando 18012 Posts |
CIA drones have killed more children in Pakistan than this attack ...
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Pakistan school attacked by Taliban, more than 100 dead, mostly children. (5 Likes) | ||||||||||
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