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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
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On Dec 21, 2014, C.J. wrote: Thanks for being drawn in, C.J. because you make some valid points. The distinction between "prediction effects" and "precognition Effects" is important to me a creator and writer of magic effects of all kinds. In writing up an effect most Mentalist would consider Mental Magic I wish to be clear, concise and not offend either conjurors or mentalists by using a term that has a special "insider" meaning. I also write books for the general public about deception, decision making, interpersonal communications, etc and wish to use the best terminology for that audience. This leads to the idea that what Mentalists consider to be "clear definitions" may not be what a lay spectator understands. The concept of "seems possible" to Mentalists may differ from what the general public considers to be "seems possible." I still contend no one has addressed this issue. So yes, my perceptions of the importance of these words is mo e restrictive than most. "Fair" has nothing to do with it. I used the phrase "prediction effect" and responders immediately changed this to "precognition." This is not "fair." Thus, rather than find agreement on a definition we get confusion and deflection. Great! That is all I need. Now I can enter in a book, "Even noted Mentalists cannot agree on terms like prediction, precognition and presumption." ..... in answer to your questions above: I feel that a Precognition Presentation will have a higher degree of "seems possible" that a Prediction Effect, but that both are less "believable impossible" that mind reading or far sight (as examples) But, I also agree that these effects may be "more entertaining" for the same reasons -- they are known to be tricks and create less fear. If I chose to become a Mentalist (perform for pay) I would certainly add an effect of any type that is currently "the rage" to balance my more serious effects that are more "impossible." However, this in no way would prove that my cheering audience meant that these effects were "seems possible." I can agree with the original offered definition containing those words only to reference to the entire performance -- that the spectator may go home with a feeling os "seems possible" generally, supported by the fact that they could "see through" some effects such as the grand Prediction. No, for me that would still be not a Prediction. Writing it down is irrelevant. A prediction might be "on July 23rd you will have a psychic call away from work that will save your life." Thanks for the questions.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts |
Which psychic call are you talking about, funsway?
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
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On Dec 21, 2014, Martin Pulman wrote: In the true story above. "psychic" as in "sensitive to supernatural forces" Nothing to do with anyone claiming to be a psychic or any claimed psychic ability. I still don't know the source of the "call," "Divine whisper," "Current throb," whatever, so I have to name it something. Do you have a better term? I have many similar experiences of the "can't be readily explained" variety. Do they occur because I have a heighten empathic ability, am willing to listen, or because I ****ed off some minor deity? Am I drawn to study Mentalism because of my experiences, or are my experiences a result of the study? Either way, clarity of terms and communication is essential. I believe many people have similar experiences or stories from trusted friends. This is part of what draws them to see you perform. Whether they think you are pretending or have some ability -- you provide validation for their experience and reduce fear. It is not a matter of "seem possible" but affirmation of what they know is possible but don't understand. Their energy may infect the rest of the audience only seeking release from boredom. Just a theory -- more than a fantasy but less than science. Magic!
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Funsway - do you ever think it might be your own imagination mixed in with a few other factors? like confirmation bias, your general world philosophy and a few other bits 'n pieces?
i get what you mean though - we tend to deal with labels, so it can be important to call an experience "something"...just so we can live with it and/or file it away mentally... around 50% of the population have experienced stuff that they personally cannot explain...which doesn't mean its not unexplainable obviously, but it becomes "a thing" something that happened to an individual which is difficult to explain to others who are either against that kind of thing, or haven't had a similar experience - or are too quick to label that person as a weirdo just because they are trying to be as honest as possible...
I've asked to be banned
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts |
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On Dec 20, 2014, funsway wrote: If it is "divine intervention", why were you given a "current throb" and forty two people were sent to their deaths? What kind of divine being plays games like that? Also, how can you be certain you would have been at that exact part of the freeway at the exact time of the pile up? Freeways are long and cars go fast. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
To be fair to funsway, and being an open-minded sceptic means that:
yes, there would have been a chance that he could have been in that accident, no one on either side of that experience knows the odds funsway did state he didn't know how else to describe it, and offered several terms and asked for others, so no need to focus on "divine throb" if you want to explore some critical thinking would the experience have changed if he had stopped to stroke a cat and therefore would have been late and missed being in that accident - would that cat therefore become important to funsway as some kind of intervention of some sort? is funsway willing to consider/accept the idea that it wasn't anything odd, but something in his unconscious that meant he didn't particularly fancy going to work that morning (or night before) - for whatever reason(s), or that it was just luck that he wasn't involved? the root of it was that he felt an "inkling" to not go to work that day, and he found out later that if he had, he might have been involved in the accident that took place. ___________________________________________________ when the london underground was attacked a few years ago, the major one - the day before I just suddenly felt the urge to take the next day off and go see a friend of mine...i booked the day off, and went to see him that night, we stayed up all night playing games and smoking - I crashed out on his sofa at about 3amish..i woke up mid morning, flicked on his tv and saw what was going on and shouted up to him... it was my trainline, my kind of time in the morning and it was were I would normally sit too (where some of the explosions happened)... for me, it was just a coincidence, the inkling I felt was a mixture of things, not seen my mate for a while, it was pretty slow at work at the time, I had lots of leave to use up...so that was that... the important bit for me was at no point did that inkling lead me to believe that I was being guided away from a disaster...as I am not religious in any way...though I do believe in huge odds happening on a daily basis...
I've asked to be banned
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts |
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On Dec 21, 2014, IAIN wrote: I was also about to travel on the Circle Line at roughly the time of the bombs but decided against it at the last minute. So that's two out of two so far. I wonder how many other people have stories of near misses of fatal events? Given that not one of the three of us can say for certain we would have been on the exact trains with the bombers or at the exact spot on the freeway at the time of the pile up, I'd say we are most likely guilty of "close-call-phenomenon", an old psychological term (which I've just made up) for people wanting to feel they have closer contact with major disasters than they really do. |
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Bill Cushman Inner circle Florida 2876 Posts |
[quote]On Dec 21, 2014, CThomas wrote:
Bill, would you mind sharing what you said to the women in response to their question about the dream log? I'm fascinated with how mentalists deal with issues like this, and even though it's a tangent I don't think it's entirely unrelated to the original topic of this discussion thread. CThomas, I was afraid someone would get around to asking me that question! In all honesty, I don't remember for sure what I said. Given when it was, I probably tap danced and deflected, lol. I have a sense that I focused on validating the use of dream logs to enhance recall, since there is evidence to suggest such logs are helpful in that way, and was non-commital about any benefits in terms of enhancing precognitive abilities. Funsway, I know I owe you a PM and I will get there but I feel compelled to comment on a salient aspect of your last few posts on this thread and another you've been active on. I'm finding myself completely lost in regards to what it is you are attempting to communicate. May I suggest you be more concise (I know, I'm not one to talk when it comes to this, lol, but I like to believe I've become better at it over the years), stick to one topic at a time and define your terms more clearly? It would also help if you were more responsive when asked for clarification. I suspect if you are losing me, and I am probably more familiar than many with your writing style, it is a safe bet that others here are equally or more confused. |
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insight Inner circle 3095 Posts |
To that psychic, I would have explained that the difference between a mentalist and a psychic is that whereas I entertain people, he or she defrauds people.
Only one word separates psychic and psychic entertainment, but what an important word it is! Regards, Mike Quote:
On Dec 18, 2014, kasper wrote: |
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C.J. Inner circle There's a lotta rambling in my 2366 Posts |
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On Dec 22, 2014, insight wrote: Who the heck do you think you are, returning this lovely argument to the original topic?!?! :bg:
Connor Jacobs - The Thought Sculptor
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur Be fondly remembered. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
The nice think about a story is that every reader can pick from it what they wish and ignore the rest.
If I had written this third-person would the questions be different? Thanks Iain for the statistic. This means that perhaps 50% of your audience has some personal bias towards what "seems possible" other than that the other half. It would be interesting to know if that number has increased or decreased since the advent of easy Internet communication and YouTube revelations. Regardless, if you take me out of the equation, this knowledge that 50% has a personal experience could be taken into account in crafting a routine or Volunteer selection. It certainly suggests that what is considered "seems possible" in not universal for any effect.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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