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David Numen Inner circle 2075 Posts 
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Bob Nelson, Tony Corinda and Al Mann and many others all seemed to regard readings as a valid part of mentalism. Bob Nelson's opinion was that mentalism was nothing more than a conduit to other ways of making money and not in and of itself an end point.
And there's a wee bit of twistology going on with you Martin. I am not saying readers don't con. But the actual act of a reading is, in and of itself, rarely a con. Yes, there have been phonelines where people sit with lines written on tarot cards and the like - I would agree such things are a con. But it doesn't make all readings a con. I have met many readers and only one would I consider as someone that could affect someone negatively and I told her to her face. And Derren Brown is, in my opinion, exposing mentalism methods when he exposes readings - mainly because most readers I've met don't use anything like the methods he exposes! Only mentalists would! Someone told me Paul Zenon was on telly exposing "mediums" recently on TV. I didn't see it but this fellow's opinion (a reader, mentalist and magician) said that it would more likely hurt performing mentalists than readers. It's a belief and as such I don't really think it's part of any entertainer's business to lecture people on what to believe. |
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts
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David,
You are free to believe whatever you wish. I never try and dissuade people from their beliefs. The question is whether the mentalism section of The Magic Café is a suitable venue for such beliefs to be promoted. Mediumship, psychic surgery, spritualism etc have all featured in mentalism performances: would you be happy if the board became inundated with, for example, believers in psychic surgery pushing their techniques and arguing for it to be recognised as a respected part of mentalism? Would you be happy for mediums to regularly post links to their guidebooks and argue for their practice to be recognised as a legitimate form of mentalism? If not, why not? My position is entirely consistent: mentalism is a performance art form concerned with creating the illusion of supranatural abilities. Once you claim to be doing something for real outside of an entertainment context you are no longer performing mentalism-it doesn't matter if your claim is that you can contact people's dead relatives, remove tumours with your bare hands or give personality readings and tell the future with bits of printed card. As stand-alone pursuits, I believe they should really be considered off-topic. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts
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I agree with most of that martin - (don't faint) - except you can generate a reading/personality analysis using bits of printed card...and it is done "for real", not in the psychic sense, but just like any other game...cluedo, scrabble, whatever..you just learn the rules of the game and apply them consistently and fairly, no cheating allowed...
however, there is still some value in discussing these things "as real", because then you can learn how to make the cheating stuff look as convincing/realistic as possible, to entertain people... or even better, ramp it up a notch or take it off into something else entirely...they are welcome topics for discussion...and as I keep saying to you - I want to read threads started by you on mentalism and how you see it, you say you've been studying it for 30 years - you must have lots to share...so why not talk about it? i know you don't have to - but you have people here who want to listen talk about mentalism ...and I think you're just gonna have to accept that others don't agree with you on the whole readings thing, there's been (probably) a dozen of those kinds of discussions already...please can we have something new?!
I've asked to be banned
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts
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I think that Tarot and other oracles, when used by mentalists, add a mystical flavor that has become notably absent in the era of "psychological mentalism," just like performers who directly or indirectly create the impression that they have psychic abilities or just the ability to read minds.
I wonder why those who condemn readers of all kinds haven't also gone after those who perform bizarre magic. |
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ddyment Inner circle Gibsons, BC, Canada 2501 Posts
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Bob wondered
Quote:
I wonder why those who condemn readers of all kinds haven't also gone after those who perform bizarre magic. For that matter, why don't they go after psychologists, doctors, management consultants, priests, etc., the majority of whom use practices with no evidential support to "con" (Martin's terminology) people into giving them money. And there are far more of them than there are readers!
The Deceptionary :: Elegant, Literate, Contemporary Mentalism ... and More :: (order "Calculated Thoughts" from Vanishing Inc.)
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9987 Posts
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I agree with Martin's views on "fake readings" but also feel that just "reading" a response to cards or casters or oracle out of a book is also "faking it" to some degree.
A person requesting a Reading might rightfully assume some wisdom and experience on the part of the Reader beyond turing a card over and reading what is on the back. The value of any divination process is to assist the seeker in discovering hidden things about themselves. (see Fain Faire Sooth) A person doing a lot of cold reading, for example, will heighten their empathic and intuitive skills as to "what to say" and "what to withhold," while doing Tarot with cards in one hand and a book in the other is "faking it." IMHO In contrast, those desiring to assist people in solving personal problems are not "method dependent" or "prop dependent" One can do a Reading with tumbled knives and forks, a yellow pad, a tree branch, a spreadsheet, tea leaves or bumps on a person's head. As ddyment notes above, there are many professions involved in doing "readings," legitimate or fake -- they just call it other things.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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David Numen Inner circle 2075 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 9, 2015, Martin Pulman wrote: Martin, you clearly despise the world of readings and think it's baloney. Hardly a thread goes by on here without you stepping in. If people were free to believe whatever they wanted then you'd just let be. Quote:
On Feb 9, 2015, Martin Pulman wrote: You're changing the goalposts Martin. The concept of doing 1-2-1 or group readings after a mentalism show or a house party performance has LONG been a mentalism staple. Indeed it's probably been the bread and butter of more mentalists than stage performances. Readings, in and of themselves, are a part of mentalism. The other items are performed within the context of a show and are not relevant in the sense you are talking about. Quote:
On Feb 9, 2015, Martin Pulman wrote: Again, goalposts moving a bit. Mediums aren't the same as tarot readers. Most mentalists I know doing readings do not do mediumship. Quote:
On Feb 9, 2015, Martin Pulman wrote: Well apply to the board and work at getting such topics completely eradicated forevermore! And you say you're not trying to dissuade people from their beliefs? Readings have been a continued part of many mentalists lives. Many have written about it. Your dismissing of the notion of readings as not being part of mentalism means that Webster, Thomas, Wells, Dewey and many other fine authors works should not be discussed. Isn't this all a bit "Thought Police"? If it bothers you so much why not...I dunno...just not read such thread? It went on before you were born and I'll guarantee it'll still be going on long after you're dead. I wonder why those who worry so much about people being taken advantage of because of, in THEIR opinion, dangerous beliefs don't go after people who encourage their followers to crash planes into buildings or behead people rather than a group of people who, in the main, strive to make the world a slightly happier place. I've had a few readings at fairs myself and I have to say even the one I knew was an out and out chancer still managed to leave me feeling more positive. |
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts
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David,
You seem keen to have your cake and eat it. If we are to allow Penny to be a forum for all practices tangentially related to mentalism, then mediums, psychics, spiritualists, faith healers, psychic surgeons etc should all be free to push both their beliefs and their products on here. Why should readers be privileged above others. And again-believe what you want. I do not have to respect your beliefs. Just as, to use your example, I do not have to respect the beliefs of people who wish to behead others-even though they genuinely believe they are helping others by doing so. If any youngsters are reading these threads, my advice to you would be to study and practise mentalism. It is a beautiful art form that will bring you years of pleasure. Don't be fooled by the snake oil salesman telling you you can make a fortune from giving readings, be that of tarot cards or chocolate fingers. |
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MindExplosion Regular user 133 Posts
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Alejandro Jodorowsky has some interesting stories and opinions on psychic surgery in his book Psychomagic. Might be something worth looking in to...
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts
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How about just having Penny be a forum where prople stay on topic?
I cannot see how most of the posts on this thread provide any reviews or information on the book. That was the purpose of the thread, not to vent one's personal beliefs as to what constitutes mentalism and what does not. Tony |
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mrkmarik Regular user New York 185 Posts
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The subject of the thread is How To Build up a psychic Practice with full length CR and not about if readings are ethical or not.
why on earth David year after year you trying to justify or convince people who think otherwise? Do what you gotta do. There plenty of new age websites on internet where people talking tarot palms and other divination topicks without smell of trickery,and here is the place where we can speak openly about our things without justifying anything to anybody after all we are all grown ups and can decide for our selfs what is ethical and what is not. |
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David Numen Inner circle 2075 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 10, 2015, mrkmarik wrote: I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything mate. I'm happy to leave people to believe what they want to believe. The problem is that others aren't. And if you look back through the thread I had several posts which were absolutely on topic about the book and about other recommendations before others started getting involved with their opinions which were irrelevant to the thread. And the thread seems to have been edited a bit which makes it hard to see what started when. |
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MindExplosion Regular user 133 Posts
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I'll probably just start posting in Spooky. It seems more accepting and less hostile over there. Thank you for all the feedback and advice, here and in private. I should have plenty to study when it all gets here!
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bdekolta Inner circle Texas 1636 Posts
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So Martin when I read my "Encyclopedia of Mentalism" and it clearly details office readings, horoscope pitches, back of the room readings after Q&A I'm not supposed to see a tie in?
When Eddie Fields did Q&A followed by selling horoscopes there is no relation? I don't intend to argue out even discuss this past this post as the answers are self evident. And I agree with some others that the constant dogmatic assertions to the contrary change nothing. I'm reasonable certain they do stifle some participants from posting. |
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Stunninger Inner circle 2827 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 10, 2015, bdekolta wrote: Very well said. |
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Posted: Feb 9, 2015 06:20 pm 
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