Mike - If you read Danny's response to the post I quoted, you will see that Doruk had no clue what Danny's business model was. He assumed what Danny spent on his website initiative and went on to assure him his services would help, again with no understanding of Danny's business model.

I was not speaking of individual bidding in my post, just an acknowledgement that the types of services being offered are not suited for all business models. That is what is generally lacking from those who post about website content services.

My point above was that acknowledgement of this would add credibility.

Ahhhh ok...

I only half got what you where saying..

Man is that an understatement! I couldn't agree with you more. I have not had one web designer ever take the time to ask me my needs, specifcs to me, my business and business model, or any other specifics or details to my needs and concerns. It is ALWAYS about what They can do.

I'm not paying you for what you can do, go do yourself, I am interested in paying for my specific needs (that's all that matters to any client), the question is can you and/or are you capable of A.) understanding my needs and concerns, and then B.) able to execute this to my specifications.

I work a market that has some very specific uniquenesses, some may even consider oddities. Most can not see or accept flash, no video (in most cases) and no major graphics. Every web designer seems to feel that every one of the latest bells and whistles are of value and what everyone wants/needs. This so isn't true.

There seems to be an aire of thinking they are above the basic needs of many (including myself) and almost immediately deem me uneducated and behind the times. I once spent over $5,000 to have site built for me. I provided them specific needs (even though they didn't ask) and they build the site they wanted to anyhow. At a glance it was beautiful. But it was not at all what I wanted, and in the three weeks it took me to get this whole order ironed out my stats to the sight dropped 73%. We received over 80 emails or phone calls complaining about not being able to function within our site (which I forwarded these emails on to the designer) and had to get outside parties in to resolve the mater.

So I agree with charliechekers perceptions completely. Everyone thinks they know what is best, but they don't. Most don't even understand this or that the customer may have specific business model and needs, and it really doesn't mater to them, but just what they can or are capable of doing. This combined with the technical jargon and presentation they lay on you that is only impressive and understandable to them and other techies. Their business approach bedside manner leaves a lot to be desired from those I've experienced.

Also don't tell me what the site you can build will cost, try asking me what my budget is and then tell me what you can do within my means.

Better yet find out my needs. Then give me a quote. Odd how they always manage to spend 100% of any given budget.

So true

Ok I have to accept that I am just different then.. Because this sounds ALIEN to me.

All I do is work with clients to figure out their business model and to understand the market.
If a website drops conversion then it was designed to look nice and not be functional.

The process in my opinion should be

- Gain Market Understanding
- Understand Ideal Client
- Build an FAQ / SAQ and then extract key elements to research
- Figure out what is needed for marketing and conversion based off research
- Build a site with themed architecture
- coach client in content development.

Wow. That would be one awesome web designer! Sometimes it's amazing to think about how many of us (and not just the service industry) have completely forgotten how simple business is.

Yea it really is pretty simple.

Hey all just noticed all these posts. Seems like you all have had bad experiences with 'digital' people, I can understand tough its not my fault. So I would really appriciate if you do not sound like I am responsible for your past experiences.

I am going to try to repsond all in one, but if I miss anything, let me know and I will complete.

Charlie, I am not assuming every business model is the same and I cant really understand how you assume that I do. If they were the SAME, I would inform you with default costs but instead I have given ranges to you, that is because they differ. That being said %90 of the magicians will have needs that %90 match each other so it would not really hurt to have the conversation going on from what will fit most of the people. And unless your planing a ground breaking technology on your site, costs will not multiply theirselves.

That being said, I didn't offer anything spesific to Danny. And I don't need any clue to pre-inform him about stuff, this obviously is a general approach and if the client needs something special, it will be discussed. Keep in mind that you might get in the process of a building a website a few times in your life, but as pros in this industry, we do it on a daily basis, so we know what we might face pretty well.

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Mindpro; First I should inform you that MOST of the clients come up saying they want 'a website' and yet when you ask them what pages do they need, what kind of design do they prefer and similar questions, they generally have no idea. So its the webmasters job to help these people, guide them trough the process. Just like in magic, our clients do not now 'how to buy a magic show' or what is best for them, so we educate them on this process.

Secondly, most of the clients are, understandably, too excited about their websites and want to interviene in the process of building it up. This do not only obstructs the designer to do what he does best, also doubles the time (at least) needed to spend on completing the project. That is a cost which needs to be reflected on the price. That being said, hold your breath, I got more to say.

There are a few ways this can go.
1) Designer offers you a package; which has standart values that will cover your needs, and will probably have more in to it than you could imagine. You can buy this, which would be the most economic one.
2) You might want special care. Now this is not a special site, or anything different than option 1. Its just that you want to interviene, making sure everything is going right, having the designer spend double time. Its understandable, its all ok, but will cost a little more.
3) You know what you want, tell it straight to the designer, he gives you a quote, accept it or reject it and it goes on.

One line I use every week is; ' Spesific needs have spesific prices. ' So in your message you are saying you want to be listened and quoted accordingly, than in the end of your message you say you want to learn what can be done with in your budget. It just does not work like that, either you will need to pay for what you are asking or you will need to get whats best within your budget.

One more thing to note here is that most of the clients will not have an understanding of the pricing of digital work. If you talk with an amateur, he can have a 2 hour meeting with you, only to end up quoting you 2.000 dollars when your budget was only 200 dollars. If you talk with a professional, he will learn your needs -briefly- and quote you a range about it, if that fits you, further discussion will be made to finalize.

Just so you get a better understanding behind this; Mike exampled it more detailed but; when dealing with a complex site (a standart magicians site is definitly not complex), the plan for the site it self will cost you over 2-3k. The plan is dozens of pages detailing what the site will be, its not a code, not a design, just a plan.

So if you want a professional to sit with you, discuss and consult your needs, educate you on the subject, you should change your approach. Maybe that's why you havent had anyone ask your needs yet. Its not a 5 minute process to understand your needs for a website, its hours. If you want to get that for free or without showing your willigness to work with the spesific designer, you should look for those who just started out in the industry, which I don't really recommend...

There is a lot to say about this subject but I will cut it at this point and explain further if you may have any more questions, concerns.

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dearwiseone, I have made the necessary simple explanations for the simple business model above.
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Danny, if you believe you have special needs that is different than majority, please let me know what they are briefly and I will be able to tell you a cost range for them.

And kindly, do not expect anyone to predict that you do have such needs.
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Finally; you guys all seem to be ****ed of with the web design industry's business models. Industry models shape with the needs of majority, there is no point in complaining about them. You can always have specialized services if you ask for them but you can not go to a supermarket and complain 'I want to take my groceries and go away, come later in a month and pay.', that is just not how they work.

If you look at it, most of it applies to magic industry as well. When I talk with a client who wants to book a magic show, I briefly get what they need, quote them a range to see if they have a realistic budget, go on discussion if they do or kindly inform that my fees wont be appropriate for them and refer them to a more affordable colleague.

If they want to learn general info, I give them general info, ready made packages, rates... Whats wrong with that ?

To be clear you ASSUMED what I paid when I never stated it. You seem to make lots of assumptions. I only cleared up that. I was not the one who said I have specific needs or what jot. Others saw your answer andmentioned that it is an assumption made that all models arw the same. So I didn't expect a thing from you.

And just so you are clear and stop being defensive when there is no need I spent months working with them. Prior to and during creation literally hundreds of hours. You make yet another assumption and it is just absolutely wrong yet agaim. This is sort of the piint Charlie is making and I am agreeing more the more you pst. Web designers in general like hings very "samey" for lack of a better wword. After all it is easier that way.

It is odd how you come here and defend designers you don't even know, tell us what we do wrong in dealing with them, and assume we made mistakes. It points to the problem all of us are talking about. Thank you for illustrating it so well. I do not think you listen very well.

Kindly do not make any more incorrect assumptions in your next post. Find out peoples needss, do what is needed. I still say that is a simple business model. I am sorry web design has not come that far along.

Doruk,
You've posted your contact info. If people are interested and truly believe you're the best man for the job, they'll get in touch with you. Maybe we leave it at that before this becomes a course in making assumptions.

My post really needed spellchecker!

What an unnecessary discussion, I assume...

Doruk

What kinds of questions would you ask me about my business in order to determine if you could offer me a website solution?