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bootsbrisket New user 67 Posts |
I am interested to know, from your own experiences, what are some production effects that seem to be most physically comfortable for doves. I would like to avoid tricks which involve the dove being in a very small and constricted space, or in which there is a risk of too much heat, physical stress, or limited air supply.
I have just acquired three doves about a week ago and they are acclimating nicely to me and their new home and are generally quite calm. In another month or so I'd like to start introducing them to being handled more often, and eventually being put in some sort of box or other container for short periods of time. So, to start them off on their performance career as easily as possible, I'd like suggestions of effects in which your dove(s) seem to be the most content. Some box-related effects look fairly roomy, from the pictures in the ads or in the videos, but it's hard to tell if that's the case in real life, or how the doves actually respond to being inside them. I would very much appreciate suggestions or advice anyone can give. Thanks! |
Dave Scribner Assistant Manager Lake Hopatcong, NJ 4849 Posts |
A lot depends on the size of your doves. If you don't clip their tails, and I hope you don't, then you'll need a effect with a large load chamber. I've seen very few if any effects with air holes in the load chamber so modification is always necessary. You want to keep your doves in the chambers for as short a period of time as possible. If you work with an assistant, it would be nice for them to load the chamber just before you need it. If not, then you just need to be careful how long you keep them cooped up.
Where the magic begins
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jimgerrish Inner circle East Orange, NJ 3209 Posts |
If you build your own props, consider making a carrying cage that can also be used as a dove production when you get to the show. The doves are in the cage the entire time unless you decide to bring them out so the audience can see them flap their wings, etc. after they make their big appearance. Then they go back into the cage so you can carry them back home. Even after you begin to use the doves in different productions, the cage will always be there for transportation, and by then you may wish to use it to vanish the doves after they have been individually produced and put into the cage.
Jim Gerrish
magicnook@yahoo.com https://www.magicnook.com Home of The Wizards' Journals: https://magicnook.com/wizardsTOC.htm |
JoshRyan Regular user Kitchener, ON, Canda 123 Posts |
Quote:
On Jul 24, 2015, bootsbrisket wrote: I used a dove pan for my first dove production but learned quickly that it can get really hot, especially when doing outdoor shows in the summer. After watching the Tony Clark videos, I now do dove productions with an invisible harness and the birds sit in sleeves, using the standard method. The birds seem quite comfortable in the sleeve. |
Rook Special user I went to the Magic Cafe and all I got were these lousy 834 Posts |
I rather like Fielding West's dove production. It may be a little more restrictive than you're looking for, but Harry appears quite comfortable in it.
Those who don't believe in magic will never find it.
-Roald Dahl |
Dave Scribner Assistant Manager Lake Hopatcong, NJ 4849 Posts |
The problem with using a dove pan outside is two fold. First, the load chamber is small and second, the pan is made of metal so if it's hot outside, you will have a hot load chamber. Part of this can be overcome by drilling a few holes round the handle. This will allow some air circulation and won't be seen by your audience. The problem can be reduced is you keep the pan out of the sun.
Here's something I used to do on very hot days. If you have a table with shelves, bring a small shallow dish or pan and some ice with you. Put the ice in the dish just before you load your dove. Set the dove pan in the dish just deep enough so the bottom of it is on the ice. This will cool down the metal. Keep a small cloth next to the dish so when you lift the dove pan, you can quickly wipe off any water that has formed from the melting ice. If you have a large dove, you can bend the tail under it's body parallel to it's belly this will give a little more space in the load chamber for air circulation.
Where the magic begins
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
I used two doves for about 25 years in my school show. I work in shirt sleeves (maybe also a vest in winter) NO BODY LOADS.
The show ran 45 minutes. The doves worked in the first 18 minutes. I loaded them just before show time, and first bird was produced about the 12 minute mark. The second bird at about the 16 minute mark. The entire routine ran about 8 minutes. (Lots of gags, bits of business, etc. I produced the first bird from a basic dove bag, as "invented" by Tony Kardyro, 50 years ago. The second bird was in a Neil Foster type dove harness (velcro closure). Both birds "waited" in the prop case where they had plenty of air and were comfortable lying on a foam pad, which was "sculpted" out to conform to their body shape. I wrote up the entire routine with gags, bits of business, ETC. in my book, which is finally available. One of the birds dies at 17 (just old age) and was replaced. They were my 'family' and were never abused or misused. You don't need boxes or tubes to produce them from. just a couple of silks, the harness, and the dove bag.
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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David Todd Inner circle 2328 Posts |
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On Jul 31, 2015, Dick Oslund wrote: I agree with this and it's more magical to not use a "box" . The birds can be loaded from a simple harness/bag, stolen under cover of a handful of silk handkerchiefs/streamers, or a hat coils , etc. . Same thing with a rabbit , actually . (load bag on the back of a chair, behind a table) However, one prop that I don't think looks too much like a "box trick" is the Production Cage from Sterlini Magic (other dealers have made this sort of cage , but I had the one from Sterlini . It was very nicely made .) . I liked it because it looks like an animal's cage , not a "magic box trick" and it can be performed in situations with bad sight lines, with people seated on the extreme sides, or even surrounded. The original poster was asking about "production effects that seem to be most physically comfortable for doves" with the emphasis on "comfortable" . The load chamber is comfortable for the animal with plenty of air , so the animal can stay in there a long time without feeling "squished" . (I used a medium-size rabbit , but I imagine that it would fit two or three doves comfortably ). Sterlini makes this in two sizes , Regular and Large . For two doves the Regular size would work fine , I think.. http://www.sterlinimagic.com/viewitem.php?productid=11 I can't find any video of the Sterlini cage in action, but here's a similar item (identical method, but I have no idea if the workmanship is as good as Sterlini's ; I'm guessing probably not , but it looks nice in this demo) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kqwjez7Jvcc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8_rQ530EmE Here's some guy practicing with it . He produces two doves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkAv5Gy_-98 Again, it would be best to use a method that doesn't depend on visible apparatus , but in some cases if you're surrounded then loading from a table or chair is not practical . So the production cage works in that situation. This conversation reminds me of a David Ginn idea that I think he had published in Linking Ring many years ago ... It involved a dove in a white dove bag , loaded in a Kleenex box . (the back of the Kleenex box is open , unknown to the audience ; from the front it looks quite ordinary ). Pick up the Kleenex box , remove several tissues , then in the process steal the dove under cover of the tissues as you put the kleenex box down . Then bunch up the tissues and produce the dove . It's a simple, bold steal, but it works . I also used this to produce a hamster. . |
Rook Special user I went to the Magic Cafe and all I got were these lousy 834 Posts |
Come to think of it, I use a version of Tommy James' library production for my rabbit. The load area is especially roomy, so your dove would be quite comfy herein:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFVaUVgiaxw
Those who don't believe in magic will never find it.
-Roald Dahl |
Dave Scribner Assistant Manager Lake Hopatcong, NJ 4849 Posts |
Quote:
This conversation reminds me of a David Ginn idea that I think he had published in Linking Ring many years ago ... It involved a dove in a white dove bag , loaded in a Kleenex box . (the back of the Kleenex box is open , unknown to the audience ; from the front it looks quite ordinary ). Pick up the Kleenex box , remove several tissues , then in the process steal the dove under cover of the tissues as you put the kleenex box down . Then bunch up the tissues and produce the dove . It's a simple, bold steal, but it works . I also used this to produce a hamster. This is a very nice effect. Tony Clarks shows how to make this on his DVD's. The difference is that the dove is loosely wrapped in Kleenex instead of a dove bag. Eliminates the need to ditch a bag.
Where the magic begins
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David Todd Inner circle 2328 Posts |
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On Aug 2, 2015, Dave Scribner wrote: Hi, Dave - I think Ginn's original version of it also used the dove wrapped in a piece of tissue paper. I should have noted that detail for the original poster who was looking for ideas to produce his dove. (I added the white bag with velcro tabs for my hamster version because the hamster could too easily chew his way out of a tissue wrapping ! ) And here's Tony performing it: https://youtu.be/Uw6trS9O6Zk?t=154 . |
Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
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On Aug 2, 2015, Dave Scribner wrote: Hi Dave! Your mention of a Kleenex box steal tweaked my memory cells. In the '69/'70 Ireland (Magic Inc.) YEARBOOK, on page 77, Gary Meador (aka Darwin) of Las Vegas, suggests the steal of a dove (rolled in tissue) from behind a Kleenex box. I wonder what the date of Ginn's Kleenex box idea was. Dick
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Sam Sandler Inner circle 2487 Posts |
My favorite non body dove productions that I have used for many years.
my new silk fountain to dove that I recently redesigned carnival of ribbons and dove tray. although most magicians don't perform the dove tray correctly. or I should say they don't perform it the way it should be done. i used to perform several body loads but moved away from them due to my new opening routine. i am however going back and will be adding one new body steal. the real key to any dove production is to make sure that they are safe and secure as well as have plenty of air. to me the worse production of a dove is from a dove pan. at least not on a professional level. great to teach kids but really not meant for a real show in my opinion. i know I am being a bit harsh with my opinions but this is after many many many years of performing thousands of shows as well as witnessing many shows. the silk fountain to dove is the most likely the best dove production out there and the least used. my new version is an updated version of the effect that really makes it fun and easy to perform. just my thoughts sam
sam sandler- America's only full-time DEAF Illusionist
http://www.samsandler.com http://www.deafinitelymagic.com |
Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
It is published in the late Johnny Brown's book, I believe he is the creator of this dove production. Although he did not state it in the book, his 2 volumes containing his magic was all invented by him.
Jim Rainhow makes a nice Fountain of Silks ending with a dove production. http://www.magiciansrus.com/STAGE%20TRICKS.html Scroll down the page. |
JoshRyan Regular user Kitchener, ON, Canda 123 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 4, 2015, Sam Sandler wrote: I agree completely. I was always a little embarrassed using a dove pan BUT it took me forever to take it out of my show because people loved it. Kids and adults would come up to me afterwards and mention the trick: when a 'dove came out of fire'. It always surprised me a little. But magicians aren't spectators. |
Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Hi Five! Hey! ya got a "high five" already!
The spectators will applaud the appearance of a dove or rabbit from ANYTHING!!! It's the livestock, not the prop. Dove/duck pans "evolved" from chafing dishes which were quite common in VICTORIAN homes. How often do you see a chafing dish today? Change bags "evolved" from church "collection" bags. I'm 83, and attend church regularly. I have seen a church "collection bag" ONCE in my lifetime. When magicians use "Victorian Era" props, an intelligent spectator tends to think, "If I had that pan, bag, box, I could do that! With the fairly recent fatal fires in public entertainment places, authorities have prohibited any kind of open flames "on stage". Several years ago, at the annual convention of one of the big "alphabet" magic clubs, the fire marshal would not allow the closing illusion act to work. Jay Marshall "filled in" with LEFTY! Schools in Chicago do not permit even lighting a match!
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
RE: The Kleenex Dove Production
I first learned this from David Ginn's book, and used it extensively in the late 70s, through the 1980s. However, I changed his method, which was to conceal the bird behind the box. He also used the taller box (maybe 4" high). I changed this to the shorter box (approx 2" high), and I concealed the bird inside the box (no way to hide it behind). I removed all the Kleenex first and cut the back, leaving the top edge intact to act as a hinge for this back "flap". I refolded the Kleenex so they would only occupy the front half of the box, but still overlapped so they could be pulled up just like the original Kleenex would. The bird was wrapped in 2-3 Kleenex and loaded in the back of the box, pushing the flap in at the same time. This made for MUCH better angles. The box was held in one hand wrapped around the back, while the other hand pulled a few Kleenex from the top hole. These were placed under the box and gripped by the fingers of the hand holding the box. Then my free hand would take the box from above and those fingers would go into the top hole and in the act of taking the box, pushed back the flap, which in turn pushed the loaded dove right into my hand, camouflaged by the visible Kleenex. The box is set down and a light shake is all that's needed to cause the Kleenex to fall away, revealing the dove. No holders to ditch. In this video from about 1980, you can catch a quick glimpse of me doing this just as the bird appears (0:35). Unfortunately though, it doesn't show the entire sequence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joKGRVAmM2k The silk fountain dove production is also published in Adair's Encyclopaedia of Dove Magic vol 4, credited to Dick Gustfason. Although OOP, these books (all 5 volumes) can be found on the aftermarket. I would HIGHLY recommend them for anyone wanting to study dove magic. Many ideas can be found that are safe and comfortable for the birds and great magic effects, too.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
itsmagic Inner circle middle earth 1117 Posts |
I have a silk fountain, what's the best way to produce a dove from it?
Currently I use a Chalet Dove tray to produce my dove. |
Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
Quote:
On Sep 22, 2015, itsmagic wrote: The silk fountain is self-contained for producing a dove. See Dick Gustafson's lecture notes or by a similar product silk fountain from James Rainho website. |
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