|
|
WDavis Inner circle 1276 Posts |
The other day, a fellow colleague who is just getting into performing, asked me for a copy of my booking and performance contract.
After removing certain me-specifics, I sent it to him. What stood out was the comment of my "contract had more teeth", as I went thru mine and compared to his and others I've seen, those other contracts gloss over certain boilerplate items: force majeur; indemnification; video and recording rights; counterparts; and others. I will continue using my contract and have had no problems from my meatier contract, but it makes me think: Either or combination of: 1) most performers fear contracts conveys a lack of trust 2) they don't understand the value and meaning of these boilerplates 3) they don't care about value and meaning of the boilerplate. What are your thoughts? Walter On a side note they also had very generic description of services, like "strolling magic/mentalism" or "stage act." I like a stronger description to clarify my role and responsibilities, these vague descriptions can cause problems. |
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
You have had no problems with your contact. It is perfect.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
WDavis Inner circle 1276 Posts |
Danny,
I'm not saying I never had problems, I'm just saying it seems that to me most performers don't care/mind/understand about the boilerplate. Every time I've negotiated a contract I've had revisions both my own contract and that of the other party. Some sections from negotiated contracts became part of my templates contract others did not, just as what was listed in my force majeur changed over time and became very specific. What I can say is since Using my meatier contract it has less confusion and therefore not led to problems. A specific example of changes that I've included since I started was counterparts, we all live in a digital age and it is quote common to get scanned copies or faxes of signatures, I've incorporated this clause to allow for these copies to be considered originals. I brought this up because I wanted to see if my experience from viewing other performers contracts and talking with them about their contracts was merely an outlier or do magicians and mentalists not care much about the contract wording. I appreciate your comments here on the café, but picking out a phrase and then adding your own opinion sight unseen of my contract being perfect is a bit much. But since I did ask for everyone's thoughts and that's yours of my entire post, thank you. Walter |
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I know that we use very specific contracts for the performers we use. We do not alter them for any reason. Everyone signs the same thing every time.
We keep them generic on purpose. Now to be fair our contracts are not for individual shows. It is a different thing to have someone come in and do 40 or 50 shows than it is to sign one for a one night show. I do indeed think that sort of contract the MORE specific you can be the better it will work out for you. You see here all the time where guys end up in situations they did not account for and simply would have been avoided if it was in the contract. In reality I do not believe most care about wording. I think a contract that scares a prospective client can be a liability. It is an obvious happy medium.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
I've noticed many performers, especially certain types including magicians, typically subscribe to a monkey see, monkey do type of mentality. I also think the issue of professional performance markets vs. consumer markets also comes into play. The contract for a kids birthday party is typically not as in-depth or detailed as a corporate, trade show or commercial contract.
In some consumer markets including "more" can be detrimental or intimidating to clents. Riders can often be seen as demanding or intimidating, rather than the more common acceptance and understanding of professional markets. I still hear of performers that don't use a contract or require a deposit. To me, even for consumer markets this is still crazy and unprofessional. They usually offer the old "I've been doing it this way for years and rarely have a problem" justification. Again, I believe this is for the performer's protection as well as the customers and is part of being a professional and meeting consumer expectations. Even part-timers or weekend warriors still need to be and are expected to be professionals. But yes, I see many performer's contracts and most are minimal at best and really don't offer much in terms of security or protection or even detailing requirements much at all. Seems many just want a simple single page "somethign in writing." I'm always amazed that quite regularly someone posts a request for someone to provide a contract of theirs for the OP's use. That's crazy to me. What one performer needs, requires and expects can be completely different for another performers. Most may just want it to get "an idea" but I think they often just seem to use it as-is. |
WDavis Inner circle 1276 Posts |
Thank you both,
the comments about consumer hindrance makes sense, as it's a market I don't touch I didn't consider that possibility. Danny, why would you keep the contract general on purpose? I may be missing something and if I am please point it out, but a contract is what defines the scope and responsibilities of the relationship, including fiscal. So a general contract seems to me as inviting confusion. Walter |
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I only have very few people we work with. 99% of issues we ever run into would never even be thought of in the tightest worded contact you can find. Notice I said issues not problems.
Since the guys we work with know for the past 9 years every time an issue came up we dealt with it so it benefitted everyone as much as possible and since we all know full well we are not ending up in court over some stupid crap since it is a long term deal lots and lots of words just make no sense for us. When new guys start it is almost always guys recommended or guys I know and they all know the history. Again this is a unique environment and I do not necessarily recommend it as a good method. Certainly not for one night gigs. But something to consider is that a contact is only worth what you ate willing to pay to enforce it. No matey how meaty or what you want to call it if it is violated you still have to pay to enforce it. Traveling between states leaves open matters of jurisdiction, to say nothing if international bookings. With a busy performance schedule who has time for that? Often confusion is alleviated by less specifics. Often this is not the case. What I originally meant by yours being perfect was that it is working for you.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
WDavis Inner circle 1276 Posts |
Danny, I can appreciate how the established going concern has created such an environment.
Those scenarios are dependant on the trust, value and respect between both parties. Mindpro, I remember talking with the drummer of a very prominent band who includes a very specific candy bar requirement in his hospitality rider. Knowing him personally, I know he can't even eat the candy requested, but his rationale was to see if the other party read the contract and is holding to it. A "compliance check" of sorts. Walter |
Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Yeah that is the same as the old Van Halen rider with the M&Ms. If they walked into the dressing room and saw them there they know they read the entire rider and paid close attention to details. I was friends with Frank Sinatra Jr. who just passed away and he told me stories of what his dad did in such of the similar event. He required a package of unopened boxes of cigarettes (I can't remember the brand) on every flat top surface in his hotel suite and dressing room and back stage at the venue table/counter tops, dressers, tables, flight cases, etc. Did he smoke that much? No, but he never had to pay for cigarettes.
It is a compliance check of sorts. I worked with another well known acts that would request huge women's panties, huge old-fashion style bra in some large size, leg warmers, a walker, 24 rolls of Charmin toilet paper,a can of baked beans and a few more items. Promoters thought they were just wild requests placed for compliance, but in reality every one of them were used in their show. |
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
The thing to remember is this. People do not want to feel manipulated. They also often when running events have 1,000 things to do, in order, to get that event done. Having a plethora of things in a contract can simply make it more trouble than it is worth.
While getting what you "need" is important it is also important to properly define the difference for yourself in what toy need, what you would like, and what you can do without. If I am going to have to tend to a performer all night while I have all the other stuff to do I go on to the next performer. I think the perception of being high maintenance should be avoided. These are just random thoughts along these lines. Not about anything anyone said specifically.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
WDavis Inner circle 1276 Posts |
Mindpro, That's one way to cut down on performance expenses.
Danny, that's a great point. |
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
One more quick thought.
Often one night deals are signed on the basis of how easy it is to get done like I alluded to earlier. But too often it takes more than one person to make these decisions. You always have to ask yourself how easy it is going to be to get the changes or the things you "need" done. If it would take me asking more than one person I DEFINITELY will move along. Too many times we ask for things that we think should be simple, but turn out are quite difficult depending on the bureaucracy involved with the event. So many people have territories they defend like gladiators and when you get in the middle of that with demands or requests it really starts to be problems. Something that may seem as simple as a dressing room can be a huge bruhaa with the client. Meals, or places to stay and so forth can cause HUGE problems. This is often the reason why I recommend a no frills approach of just giving a price and getting those things done on my own. One thing to remember is most people have been screwed by contract wording before. I personally do not want them to be in that frame of mind when dealing with them.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » Do you mind the boilerplate? (0 Likes) |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.03 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |