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KristoBall Regular user 112 Posts |
Quick caveat - John Dorenbos seems like an awesome guy with an amazing story (and this is coming from a hardcore Patriots fan who almost got killed watching an Eagles game in Philly) and I truly wish him well in his magic and in America's Got Talent. However I can't believe he used Cardiographic to advance in AGT - and not only advance - but get the golden buzzer from Ne-yo, thereby taking one of only 7 slots automatically for a trick most of us learned 20 years ago, made at home, and was made hugely popular even before YouTube existed, back in the 90s by Copperfield. I feel like this and his pencil through bill handling were relatively mainstream known. I didn't finish watching the episode, but my fear is the golden buzzer for him means a guy like Hana won't get through despite his artistry. Anyway, wishing Jon the best, just a little disappointed in the effect choice and that it earned the golden buzzer. Perhaps I'm taking AGT a bit too seriously haha
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gimpy2 Special user 960 Posts |
I always wonder why they put acts thru that could never be a feature act in Vegas. Just seems strange that every season you see somebody walk up to the judges table and do close up effects. I love close up but don't think I would be expecting to see it in a stage act. John Dorenbos is already a star I guess ( don't watch football) Did the judge think that would make people want to come to see him do basic magic? I follow Nascar but wouldnt pay 10 cents to see Jeff Gordon do a magic act.
Gimpy
www.gimpysmagic.com |
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2604 Posts |
As always, you are still thinking about it as a competition talent show. It is not. It's an entertainment show where the producers can and do make many decisions regarding advancement. Their goal is to deliver a television program each week which will attract viewers for their sponsors. Their job is to deliver an appropriate cast which will yield the proper amount of dramatic content including conflict and resolution, heroes and villains. It really has very little to do with who is more "talented". John had a great backstory and is very likable so he got through. It's manufactured entertainment, don't overthink it.
Ray Pierce
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KristoBall Regular user 112 Posts |
Completely agree with you Ray - it is mostly scripted entertainment featuring people with varying degrees of real talent. Quick story, for those who care... in an early season, a buddy of mine was on the show as a poi (fire) spinner. He made it through, after Hasselhoff made fun of him, which was priceless. They flew everyone out to Vegas, then separated them into two rooms. One room they said congratulations, you will be on the show - the other room (which my buddy was in), they said congrats, the judges like you, but the producers don't so you are going home. They flew these people all the way out to Vegas simply to get their negative reactions on film. So that's the mindset here.
But what I'm talking about is more regarding the trick itself. Yes, Jon is very likeable, has some basic talent (much more than the mainstream) and has a nice delivery. He did fine. I was just commenting on with so many other amazing effects and original presentations out there (like Hana who is a pure artist if you ask me), it's a shame and a surprise that Cardiographic earned someone the golden buzzer at the expense of other acts. Nothing against Jon, just from our perspective as knowing a little more about these effects than 99% of TV viewers, it's a head-scratcher. It's like someone winning the competition with the Invisible Deck or a Svengali. That's all I'm saying. |
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cheesewrestler Inner circle Chicago 1157 Posts |
Quote:
On Jul 13, 2016, KristoBall wrote: If the person who performed those was someone the production team decided should be the winner, because of their looks or their backstory or whatever, that would totally happen. |
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Gianni Special user WILMINGTON, DE 993 Posts |
I am somewhat relieved by KristoBall's post.
As are all of us on this board, I am a true fan of magic, and love to see magic portrayed in a positive light. In that spirit I was very happy to see Jon Dorenbos' success on AGT. But when he moved forward - with a golden buzzer - doing Cardiographic, I actually felt bad. There were people doing death defying feats that took years and years of intense practice, and they did not move forward. I felt sheepish about that. On the positive side, Dorenbos demonstrated how at any given time, with any given spectator, magic can have a mind shattering impact. Gianni |
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Martello Loyal user Catskill Mountains 280 Posts |
If I am Martin Lewis, I would be turning over in my yet dug grave.
Arthur |
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KristoBall Regular user 112 Posts |
Gianni - I just finishing watching the episode last night and could not agree more, especially with how the tightrope walkers were left out (and I'm stunned Hara was advanced - I figured only one magic act would make it through). It does show the power of the TV entertainment aspect though, that the 13-year-old comedian made it. She is INCREDIBLY likeable and talented for her age, but in no plane of existence could she be called more talented than the tightrope walkers. It's a bit more of a popularity/story contest than a pure talent contest, though there is definitely some co-mingling of the two. I thought that tightrope duo was the only lock in the competition - shows what I know.
And on the positive side, I also agree with you that it does prove the power of what we might call "simple" tricks to baffle and amaze. That's why we all love this craft so much I suppose. So in that light, it's all good as you say! |
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Martello Loyal user Catskill Mountains 280 Posts |
Quote:
On Jul 15, 2016, KristoBall wrote: Perhaps you did not see Hara on his first appearance. While I am not a fan of acts that require more skill from an assistant than a magician who simply dances around and does nothing, Hara shoed incredible skill based on what had to be years of practice. My goodness, he even turned himself into a dove and flew away. Cardiographic on the other hand requires only a thread. Arthur |
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Rocky Elite user 486 Posts |
Magicians are very familiar to Cardiographic for the simple reason that it's a wonderful effect. We show it to each other at conventions and magic club meetings as well as informal gatherings...with other MAGICIANS.
The problem is that most of the magic that we feel is over-performed or too amateurish for a professional magician to perform on nationwide TV is due to the fact that we perform more for each other rather than we do for real world audiences. Cardiographic has been around for a long time, yet it was the first time (and only time) the judges witnessed it...why?...because magicians mostly perform effects like this for other magicians. We have all seen magicians do the ID on television and the reactions it gets from lay-people, yet we shake our heads in disbelief because the performer chose to do a trick using a gimmicked deck which has been around for years. Heidi hit it on the head when she emphasized Johns personality and delivery style. Most of us huddle away in our magic caves practicing the knuckle-busting routines that will get oooh's and ahhh's from the fellers at the magic club/conventions, but will refrain from developing a performance style that makes the audience enjoy the magic simply because they find the magician charming and articulate. |
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daffydoug Eternal Order Look mom! I've got 14077 Posts |
I have to admit I too was floored when it got the golden buzzer. My jaw dropped! My thoughts were just like many of us. "Holy cow! I can do that in my sleep, yet he's heading toward a million bucks with good ol' Cardiographic !"
But I wish him the best. Just goes to show. You never know what the judges are going to think or feel about a simple effect we all take for granted. In my head, in my dreams, I easily conjure up a couple dozen effects that would blow the judges away that are with me at all times. BUT, (and this is the biggie) it takes MUCHO BUCKS to appear on AGT. You have to consider not only the cost of your act, but things like airfare back and forth to N.Y., hotel rooms and meals, and you know the rest. Many of us are not in that boat where we have that kind of dough hanging around. But being on AGT is still a great dream.
The difficult must become easy, the easy beautiful and the beautiful magical.
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Tim Hannig Inner circle Chicago area 1149 Posts |
Quote:
On Jul 26, 2016, daffydoug wrote: Hey Daffydoug... If you are chosen to appear before the celebrity judges in LA, then AGT takes care of your airfare, hotel and also provides a modest per diem for meals.
Author of PERFORM, the 2020 Magic Cafe Book of the Year
"I loved this book!" Ken Weber "4 out of 4 stars!" Nick Lewin "This will be a classic of magic!" Mark Pocan performbettershows.com |
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Ihop Inner circle Glen Spey, NY 1604 Posts |
Well,
It seems like what is basic and simple to us magicians, still impresses the audience. Don't forget, the lay audience is not aware that it's a basic trick. We are. To them it's new. It's been said over and over again here on the Café. It's the "presentation".
Ihor
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Doug Trouten Elite user Minnesota 471 Posts |
This discussion reminds me of an online comment I read years ago after David Blaine's first special. The poster wrote, "Hey, I can do a DL too. Can I have my own TV special?" The answer, of course, is "no." The trick is a small part of the total package. There's presentation, personality, backstory, etc., etc. While it's true that Cardiographic is a trick "most of us learned 20 years ago," it still blew Ne-yo's mind. Mission accomplished.
It's still magic even if you know how it's done.
Terry Pratchett |
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RobertSmith Veteran user 330 Posts |
Quote:
On Jul 13, 2016, Ray Pierce wrote: Hey Ray, Do you remember when David Blaine did his first tv special and magicians kicked and screamed about him using an invisible deck? This sort of reminds of that. -Robert |
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Ihop Inner circle Glen Spey, NY 1604 Posts |
I just watched an interview with John Dorenbos on Reel Magic Magzine Issue 42.
He sounds like he's quite knowledgeable. He's been doing magic for quite a while.
Ihor
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Jon Dorenbos is an extremely talented magician who has worked professionally at a high level for years, his success at his "other" job notwithstanding. I find most of the comments in this thread rather surprising. The "secret" is he starting point; not the ending point. Professionalism is about rehearsal to the point of smoothness, showmanship, scripting, blocking... The lay audience doesn't know, and doesn't care, how technically difficult an effect is to perform. Lectures are for magicians, but as Jon knows, performances are for laymen. I'm not at all surprised at his success on the show. It's about entertaining the audience - look at the judges and the crowd.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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RitalDino New user 59 Posts |
I don't see the real issue here. But that might be because I'm fairly new to magic.
Doug said it well, no matter what we think, the audience sees the magic, not us. We see the method. Jamie Raven used Dan Harlan's Cardtoon a few years back and advanced, nobody complained although it is nearly self working. So yes, it wasn't hard. But it was magical enough for the audience, the judges and the producers. And I think that a fun football player who does magic will have a huge advantage over the nice but too serious japanese act. Even if Hara "deserves" a lot of praise for his hard work when Dorenbos just practiced a trick he bought... |
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2604 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 2, 2016, RobertSmith wrote: Exactly, for laymen (who are usually the ones paying the bills) it is all about results. Jon appears to be a very confident and charismatic performer that knws how to choose material based on audience appeals.
Ray Pierce
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts |
We need more magicians who perform for lay audiences. There seem to be too many who perform for themselves and other magicians.
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