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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts |
Here's my personal set of rules, but there is no Ministry of Magic to enforce any rules:
If I figure a trick out, I cannot use it unless I have bought it. (although I do break this sometimes if its just for a friend) If I come up with a trick, but then find out that it was already created by another magician, I can perform it but not sell or teach it to anyone without the creators permission.
Reality is a real killjoy.
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DelMagic Special user 719 Posts |
Since you have obviously modified the method and presentation, and since you don't actually know the method used by the original performer, then I don't think you are stealing the trick.
I don't think it is accurate to say "The trick belongs to the inventor." The inventor can be given magicdom's unofficial ownership of their method and presentation. However, if if you can find another way to make the Statue of Liberty disappear, have at it! |
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cfirwin3 Loyal user Rochester, New York 233 Posts |
The intellectual property of the trick is in the publication (the written or recorded documentation) of the method... not the effect, method or potential alternative methods themselves. Many effects are published by various creators utilizing differing methods (some of them VERY similar). Most effects do not use original methods at all, but rather apply components of known methods to create a particular effect (particularly in card magic)
An example would be a torn and restored card trick. Heck, I do an invisible deck that is entirely my own combination method with a clean borrowed deck. I didn't "invent" the effect, nor do I use the 'original' published method or gimmick... but I do perform the effect my own way. The effect doesn't belong to anyone. This isn't like music or written/recorded word. What I can't do is republish a known method that is recorded to media (print, audio or recording) and pass it off as my own, even if I re-record the content myself. The proper credit is not given in the performance of an effect, but rather in the publication of a new methodology (i.e. "This effect first appeared in 'such an such magazine' in 1975... I am offering this different solution to John Doe's effect)... and this is mostly just a courtesy. So long as there is a way to pick a card and do who knows what with it... you are free to come up with your own way to make it happen. Just be careful about the claims that you make. You can't guess at "John Doe's" method and then share your "knowledge" as to how that particular effect is accomplished, as per the published creator. That would be a false representation and attribution. You CAN guess at "John Doe's" method and then share as to how YOU would accomplish the same effect. You should also be careful with effect "names". The name is part of the intellectual property. 'Torn and restored card' is an effect... but "Re4orm" is intellectual property that points to a publication and uniquely published methodology. |
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Soumyajit Regular user Under Your Bed 130 Posts |
Thanks to all who responded and shared their point of views. As it seems there is no set rule or consensus but I believe the crux of it is what you feel is right. For example, the trick I am talking about, I figured it out after a single viewing without referring to YT comments so I can perhaps perform it without qualms. But if I were to market it, I will have to check which tricks are already published for the same effects and their methods.
I love the idea of giving a brief history of tricks and naming them. Really I would keep it generic so as not to step on other peoples' products. Tear and Restore should be sufficient without calling it "RE4RM" which is Blake Vogt's name for his technique. Also I think it is correctly suggested it is the method that matters and not the effect. After all most card magic is getting a card selected, lost and found in an ingenious way. If we were to give credits for effects, most new material would have to be pulled out of the market From this fair exchange I have got the necessary info on the steps I should take and I will abide by them. Once again thanks to all of you for your experienced suggestions on the matter. Soumyajit
Visit my site at : www.ulpnet.com
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Steven Keyl Inner circle Washington, D.C. 2630 Posts |
Another point to consider is the plot itself. Method and presentation have already been covered well by others in this thread. If you see a performance of a unique or interesting plot that no one else is doing, just because you can figure out a way to duplicate the effect doesn't mean you can take it and perform it.
When you do see a unique plot, that means someone took a LOT of time and effort to put together something that no one else does. For you, or anyone, to come along and duplicate the effect, while not illegal, is certainly in very poor taste. For me, if the plot is a basic two card transpo, TnR, ACR, lost-n-found, OOTW, etc. then I agree. But if there are elements in the plot and construction of the trick that are unique to an individual, it should not be taken and used just because you can figure out a method to achieve the same effect.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!
B2B Magazine Test! Best impromptu progressive Ace Assembly ever! "If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain |
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Soumyajit Regular user Under Your Bed 130 Posts |
Quote:
On Sep 2, 2016, Steven Keyl wrote: I agree Steven. In such cases I believe a lot depends on the person's mindset regarding reproducing the idea. I for one would not simply start doing a trick if it looks unique enough to a particular magician. But if I see a lot of magician's doing similar effects with similar plots and if I can figure it out, I will give it a shot. Thanks, Soumyajit
Visit my site at : www.ulpnet.com
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Doug Trouten Elite user Minnesota 471 Posts |
In Fitzkee's book "The Trick Brain," he says there are really just 19 basic kinds of effects. So there's nothing new under the sun. If you've modified something substantially it becomes your own. If you are performing for other magicians (either live or in instructional materials) it's good form to note the history of the effect and give credit to major players in its development.
Presentation is the way to make a trick your own. If somebody else tells a story about growing up as a young girl in Alabama, you should not steal that story, even if you're doing the same trick. To use the same patter, you need to have purchased the rights. When Copperfield did his "Grandfather's Aces" trick, he tells a story about his own grandfather. Of course, it's not his own grandfather -- it's somebody else's story. But Copperfield paid for it.
It's still magic even if you know how it's done.
Terry Pratchett |
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Soumyajit Regular user Under Your Bed 130 Posts |
Quote:
On Sep 2, 2016, Doug Trouten wrote: Thanks for the point Doug. And you can rest assured I will not use the story of growing up as a young girl
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MeetMagicMike Inner circle Gainesville Fl 3501 Posts |
Quote:
When Copperfield did his "Grandfather's Aces" trick, he tells a story about his own grandfather. Of course, it's not his own grandfather -- it's somebody else's story. But Copperfield paid for it. I'd be really surprised if that plot is a modern one. |
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Doug Trouten Elite user Minnesota 471 Posts |
I agree, Magic Mike. I'm sure the plot predates Copperfield. It seems to have grown out of "A Dream of Aces" which itself was a version of "MacDonald's Aces." And of course ace assemblies go back forever. I might be wrong about Copperfield buying the rights to the presentation he used -- I seem to recall reading that, but can't put my fingers on a source. I know he's pretty good about buying the rights when he uses somebody else's material.
It's still magic even if you know how it's done.
Terry Pratchett |
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shaunluttin Special user 759 Posts |
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On Aug 30, 2016, Adrien Lochon wrote: What makes you think this would be a terrible mistake? I can see the mistake of saying, "I am not really a magician," because that would really decrease your status, credibility, and authority. Talking about the history of the effect, though, seems like a very good way to add interest. Ricky Jay does this a lot. As he's performing, he tells the history of the effects he is performing and includes the originators and their personalities. I do this a lot too. For instance, I might say, "This next one is the creation of a Canadian magician named Dai Vernon. Many consider him to the be grandfather of modern card magic. Before entering magic, he cut silhouettes..." Here is a 29-minute live performance of mine: https://youtu.be/lq2Rj1uf05M I used to be quite sensitive to criticism; I am much less so now; so, please do criticize my technique, presentation, and posts. It helps me to grow, and I promise to take responsibility and not to be defensive. |
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shaunluttin Special user 759 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 30, 2016, Soumyajit wrote: The general consensus is that it is important to be respectful of other people's secrets and creations. That said, there is no hard and fast rule, because each case varies. Is what you saw truly an original creation? Or is it centuries old? Are you stealing their style, or are you allowing their style to influence you? The choice must come from within. The only rule is The Golden Rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Where general consensus exists, there is the risk of group think. Be your own sovereign. Here is a 29-minute live performance of mine: https://youtu.be/lq2Rj1uf05M I used to be quite sensitive to criticism; I am much less so now; so, please do criticize my technique, presentation, and posts. It helps me to grow, and I promise to take responsibility and not to be defensive. |
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magicfish Inner circle 7004 Posts |
Quote:
On Aug 30, 2016, Adrien Lochon wrote: Yes, I have. |
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Doug Trouten Elite user Minnesota 471 Posts |
Soumyajit, I think you're wise to be concerned about proper crediting, but it's nothing to worry about in front of lay audiences. It's important if you're addressing magicians, either through a lecture or a teaching video. Your question about using a trick if you figured out how to do it on your own reminded me of criticism sometimes leveled at Ed Marlo, who was occasionally accused of publishing material that belonged to somebody else. Harry Lorayne once said he thought Marlo's "code of ethic" was that if he had figured out how to do a routine on his own, he felt it was his to publish, but if someone told him how to do it, he figured it wasn't his. (Not everybody agreed with Marlo on this, which led to some hard feelings by people who felt they had been ripped off.)
I'd say figuring it out on your own doesn't make it your trick. I figured out "Crazy Man's Handcuffs" after seeing David Copperfield do it on television, but that trick still "belongs" to Arthur Setterington and Herb Zarrow (and others who have improved the trickover time). I'm free to do the trick, but if I were going to publish an improved handling, I would be careful to credit the roots of the trick.
It's still magic even if you know how it's done.
Terry Pratchett |
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Soumyajit Regular user Under Your Bed 130 Posts |
Thanks Doug and sorry for the late response.
I understand what you are pointing out here and also the point mentioned by Shaun. I guess it is good to describe the roots of a trick but then again in some settings it maybe irrelevant. So I will use my own judgement in those situations. And yes I also think it is not good to publish somebody else's material if I figure out how to do it myself. No matter what, that guy did it first. And I do not have to worry about crediting and publishing as it could be years before I am good enough to publish stuff So my takeaway from all of the discussion is that, 1) I can perform it without claiming it as my own. 2) I will provide a brief history of the trick giving credit to all who deserve it, as and when situation demands. 3) In case I ever publish an improvement or alternate handling of the trick, I will credit all who helped create the trick. Thanks to all for sharing their wonderful opinions Soumyajit
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