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lynnef Inner circle 1407 Posts |
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On Oct 15, 2016, landmark wrote: Kate Tempest said 'let the lyrics speak for themselves' and then posted a few lines from "It's Alright Ma" (A song from the mid 60's, since we're into cherry picking). I think lyrics CAN speak for themselves; while at the same time agreeing that they are bound to melodies. And I do consider them part of 'literature"... they've been around a lot longer than the novel! Lynn |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
IMHO I am very happy that a paradigm is occurring with respect to how literature is viewed and defined. Before I expand on that, Magnus posted a song of Dylan;s which was NOT good at all. Dylan had some clunkers as do authors; you're not going to write "The Next Great Song" every time.
So back to songwriting as literature. Plays are meant to be active and they have a narrative. If we look back to ancient Greece and Rome we find plays that disseminated literature in an oral tradition. There were no printing presses - something I like to remind Protestants of when they argue for sola scriptura but that's another argument for another thread. In the Middle Ages, minstrels and troubadours expressed narrative in the form of song. What is the great French work called? The Song of Roland. In a very real sense, I offer that Dylan's winning of the Nobel Prize for Literature is long overdue; the Nobel Committee clearly seems to know history. The times are a changin' everywhere and we can choose to cling stubbornly to old paradigms that have little relevance or we can change our perspective. Even in our niche art there are two camps lining up for a "great debate" concerning physical books versus e-books. The physical book camp argues emphatically that physical books are superior to e-books yet the only argument they seem to be able to offer is that it "feels good" to hold a physical book. I agree that it does but what is the core purpose of a book be it magic or otherwise? Books - no matter the medium - offer narrative, entertainment, and information - obviously all three are not included simultaneously or are even appropriate in all books. Joseph Campbell has written extensively about myth and how it is handed down and how myth is transformed and myth is often transmitted by song. Does this mean that the medium therefore is NOT literature? I say no because myth is a narrative that attempts to explain the world. In the cases of great singer-songwriters such as Dylan, Leonard Cohen, and Woody Guthrie to name but a few, the same attempt at sense seeking occurs. A Marxist would argue - and I would offer that the argument is spot on - that all art is necessarily a product of its culture. It seems obvious but Immanuel Kant would have argued as a neo-Platonist that the opposite is true, i.e, that ideas or what he calls "noema" transcends culture. This is a great discussion and I must apologize for the wall of text but I would like to add one more fun thought. As I write this, I am thinking of The Beatles song "Paperback Writer." |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
When I first heard the news, my own reaction was to laugh and think, "what an insult!" Dylan is, was, and always wanted to be a rock and roll star. Giving him a prize for "literature" is like saying, "well, you can't sing, but your lyrics are really interesting."
My guess is that he is flattered and amused. Some, like Dylan (and Elvis, and Cal Ripken), are above prizes given by mere mortals. What accolades could they possibly need other than what they have already received, and who in the world is qualified to judge them? |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
A verse from Hard Times In New York Town
WRITTEN BY: BOB DYLAN It’s a mighty long ways from the Golden Gate To Rockefeller Plaza ’n’ the Empire State. Mister Rockefeller sets up as high as a bird Old Mister Empire never says a word It’s hard times from the country Livin’ down in New York town
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
FWIW Leonard Cohen was typically gracious: giving the prize to Dylan "is like pinning a medal on Mount Everest for being the highest mountain.”
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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TonyB2009 Inner circle 5006 Posts |
Even if you accept that literature encompases song lyrics, there are a number of good reasons why this was a very poor choice.
Dylan hasn't written anything of significance in a generation. There are active writers far more deserving. Most of Dylan's lyrics do NOT stand up without the melodies. They lose a lot. Like most writers he has written terrible rubbish. But unlike most, he has published (recorded)it instead of binning it. If you were to publish his lyrics that do stand up alone, would it make one substantial volume of poetry? What winner has had such a low output? How many people read Dylan, as opposed to listen to him? Literature is written communication. If the Nobel committee really wanted to broaden the scope of literature (as opposed to making a random populist choice) you could make a far stronger case for Leonard Cohen. At least he has a substantial body of poetry to his credit - and the writing is tighter and more disciplined than Dylan's. It does stand alone, without the melody. To me the Nobel committed have just shat on world literature.
Check out Tony's new thriller Dead or Alive http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alive-Varrick-Bo......n+carson
http://www.PartyMagic.ie |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
I'm all for giving lyricists prizes, but there's a bunch of novelists who write literature who just got screwed.
Anyway, if we're going to be giving prizes for lyrics, I'd probably want Lorenz Hart of Rodgers and Hart to get it first. Then Mr. Cohen and then Mr. Simon.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Have there been any great writers that have been great lyricists? I don’t’ know but I would have thought so. I mean if people like Mark Twain could write great stories for books then it seems they would also be able to write great lyrics for songs.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 17, 2016, tommy wrote: Sure. Homer was pretty good. So was the anonymous guy who wrote Beowulf. In addition to plays and poems, Shakespeare wrote a number of wonderful song lyrics.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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TonyB2009 Inner circle 5006 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 17, 2016, Magnus Eisengrim wrote: True. In addition to wonderful song lyrics, how many plays and poems did Dylan write? That is why writers deserve the literature prize, and Dylan doesn't.
Check out Tony's new thriller Dead or Alive http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alive-Varrick-Bo......n+carson
http://www.PartyMagic.ie |
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lynnef Inner circle 1407 Posts |
Dylan has written many poems! Some published in liner notes; but others published in books. How many poems one writes doesn't necessarily relate to impact or importance. We can disagree on whether Dylan deserves the Nobel; and I agree with many that his current work (eg Chronicles) has not had the impact as his work in the mid-60's. But he most definitely is a 'writer'! Lynn
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ed rhodes Inner circle Rhode Island 2885 Posts |
Dylan is certainly a writer. He wrote wonderful stories in poem form that weren't ment to be read, but listened to.
I think, for his life's work, he certainly deserves a Nobel.
"...and if you're too afraid of goin' astray, you won't go anywhere." - Granny Weatherwax
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