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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
It is a mystery to me why the magicians around at the same time as Erdnase did not discover who he was. Guys like Harry Houdini in particular who wrote his first book about such characters. It exposes crooks, confidence men, etc. “THE RIGHT WAY TO DO WRONG” - Harry Houdini: 1906. That’s just four years after Erdnase 1902.
I think I am right in saying Houdini used the Erdnase Color Change. If so he had an interest in Erdnase. Maybe he did and kept the secret.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
I don't know about the book The Right Way to Do Wrong, but most of Houdini's books were written by someone else. I think it was Walter B. Gibson, but I could be wrong.
Anyway Houdini didn't go to school much and his spelling was worse than my spelling. Vernon states that he was not a good magician, and he was not a good card magician. Houdini's only interest in exposing was because it got him headlines. And in fact in one book Vernon writes, "The Houdini Pass..." Houdini couldn't do the pass. He was a man driven to get his name in the paper bigger and better than any other magician of his day. If Houdini met Erdnase it is lost in time. Also there is no proof that Erdnase ever cheated at the card table. The only solid proof that he gambled is that he states loosing money with a short deck - and he had a run of bad luck.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Thanks, Glenn.
There must have been other magicians, living at the time, who to my mind would have been as interested as we are today about who wrote this book. These guys would have had a much better chance at finding him then, than us a hundred years later. You think he was a magician, but I don't think so for various reasons, but this is one of them. Erdnase, if he was a magician, would have been a good one. Good magicians become well known to other magicians of their time. Even if they did not know him as Erdnase, they would have surely spotted the style and methods or tricks in the book. Despite this, no magician of any repute from the time seems to have known who it was. It appears it was a big mystery not just now but from the time it came into print. Turning to the other point about Erdnase not gambling. My reading is, the man had to learn to cheat, because he had been cheated in his early days and had to learn to cheat in order to survive at the table. Is this not the thrust of what Erdnase tells us himself?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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pduffie Veteran user Scotland 340 Posts |
Magicians weren't aware of the book when it was published. Self-published books are hard enough to sell now, never mind in 1902! I think Vernon popularized it some years later.
Peter
Alternative Magic
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-07-11 16:55, Tommy wrote: Thank you, Tommy, We think alike. I feel that we are on two different sides of the same playing card. What you said about magic and Erdnase I feel about him as a card shark. I think that we can all agree that Erdnase was vary good with a deck of cards and could also do Three-card Monte. If the reason for the book is that he needed the money, why could he not go out and find a game to be in to get the money? There are a lot of magicians that are great magicians but fail as showman and the art of getting well known or getting performing jobs. Say there are about 5000 in today’s SAM. How many of them are working pros and how many of them are people that have a day job? It is very hard to do magic as a living today. And I would say it was very hard to make a living at doing magic in 1902 when Erdnase book was published. In town here in St. Louis we just had an SAM convention, and I went for a day and sat down with Jay Marshall. I asked him about Charlie Miller. He said that Charlie Miller knew more about magic than anyone that he had met. But he couldn't make a living doing it. He needed money and stayed at Jay Marshall’s and Fran's house for two years. To get him money they booked him to lecture at Magic, Inc. He did a lecture, had some money and then he went out and purchased a very expensive hat with all the lecture money he earned. Jay said Fran (his wife) never forgave Charlie for that. Many magicians are great magicians but have a very hard time making ends meet. Marlo had a day job and sold books as a sideline. Erdnase in 1902 could have been the greatest magician with a deck of cards, but being the greatest doesn't get you the money in magic if no one ever heard of you. We had some good guys want to book a lecture at my Father's magic shop, and my Dad did not book them even though they were good. Because no one heard of them and they wouldn't draw an audience. Back in 1902, to make a living Erdnase would have needed a stage act, because the theaters were the only place you could book magic. There were no restaurants or places to do close-up magic. That was the time before Houdini, It was Kellar's time in magic. Kellar worked (but was broke for most of his life) to become successful at the later part of his life. And he was one of the few that retired with money. Erdnase could have performed for clubs like the Masons or in rich homes like Max Malini as a drawing-room entertainer. As an expert at the card table, the book was to sell at these lecture shows. I can see a market for that. But I do not see why a card shark would write a book and say because he needed the money, if he could do what he wrote in his book. A card shark with Erdnase's ability could play and get the money. I also asked Jay Marshall, and he said he had no idea if Erdnase was a card shark or a magician. Then he changed the subject. I think he is tired of talking about it. Thanks for posting.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Thank you Glen for that insight on pro magicians earning a living. I am not a pro as you know and did not look from that angle. It is a point well made.
I think the book was self published in 1902 and was advertized in a magic mag, Genji, I think off hand. It did not sell very well. The following is guesswork; Those who bought it there were likely to be magicians and by word of mouth it would have become a big talking point among them, maybe. This would would be the start of the quest to find him. So does anyone know the first magician to have mentioned Erdnase in a book and when was that book published? I have had some mad thoughts about Erdnase: He was an educated guy who used some Latin. Was he a doctor? Some of his words sound like a Cowboy was he cowboy doctor? So cowboy gambling doctor. So Doc Holliday sprang to mind. Then I found the doc died before Erdnase published his book but not that long before. Erdnase talks like he worked team handed. So maybe I thought Erdnase did not write the book but Doc did and one of his friends published it, Like Wyatt Earp. Earp was around at the time the book was published and he was a gambler. He had gone missing around the time the book came out for a few years but reappeared to buy a gambling joint where he won mining rights. As I said these are mad thoughts but it shows how anyone can invent a story around a few facts.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Hardi New user Switzerland 96 Posts |
I wonder that nobody mentioned Wilbur Edgerton Sanders in connection with the name S.W.E.
Check out GENII Magazine - Volume 63, issue 1, "The Magician as Detective" |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Thanks Tommy...
1902 was the wild west. Geni Mag didn't exist as to mail order to get a copy of the book. I think the earliest magic mag was Matma - or something like that. Erdanse was before the Spinx. Also it takes a long time to write a book. Erdnase must of been writing it for years. Or at least a year. And the fact that when MD Smith did the live drawings I assume was the last part of the project. He didn't seem to have any broken bones and seemed to be in good health. Well good enough anyway. So getting back to needing the money and if it took him several months to at least a year to write a book and publish it... Why couldn't he find a poker game in that time to get the money he needed? A person with Erdnase skill in a card game would have been like money in the bank. And he could do three card monte. This is why I feel that he was a magician. And I do not feel that real cheating was not in his nature as it wasn't in Dai Vernon's nature. Who also had money problems over his life and could cheat at the card table and didn't. My whole point on this is that in my own opinion Dai Vernon and Charlie Miller were not cheaters by profession. They did not cheat or advantage play to make ends meat like Walter Scott... I feel the same goes for Erdnase. I don't think that if he advantage played at the card table he did not do it as his profession.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Glen
You have not persuaded yet but your getting there. To gamble you need a stake to play with. Erdnase mentions that a sucker can get lucky or words to that effect. Ask Doc if he has ever gone broke in a card game that he was cheating at and I will bet who makes the next coffee that the answer to be yes. A cheat can not do the business every hand and control every card. He would not deal every hand and in the mean time he could get unluky and go broke and be out of the game. I can not recall now where I read about the magic mag thing but I will try my best to find it again for you.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
I agree with you Tommy as I have played draw poker and five card stud for a summer in Salt Lake City UT.
The point is that it takes a long time to write a book. I have written four books for magic. It took me about three months for each book using computers. In 2004 getting a book done is easy. In 1902 I would suggest that writing and publishing a book took a little longer at least a year. Why couldn't Erdnase go out and find a game to play in (about a years time with Erdnase skill in 1902 it would be like money in the bank if he was a card cheater). and win with three card Monte. I would see that Erdnase wouldn't even have to cheat in a poker game if he did three card Monte after the game just as an add on. As some players cut to a high card and bet after a poker game. Being a guy that can do three card Monte and knowing it can make more money faster for any card shark that can do it. Erdnase could have played three card Monte at the card table and it doesn't seem that he did so on the streets like a busker. But if he could do this why would he need the money. Because three card monte is a money maker. Card sharks and street con men make a living off doing this one con even today. And I think it would have been easier to get away with in 1902... But that is just my personal feeling. If a magician knows how to busker on the streets to get tips they can be more successful magicians. Max Malini used to busk on the streets and saloons of that time. He was very successful because it thought him how to walk up to people and push himself. He used this to sell shows to the upper crust. Erdnase is recorded to be in the Magic and Methods of Ross Bertram - by MD Smith as a quiet unassuming gentleman... Quiet people don't seem to have the ego to push themselves like this and it takes an ego and self motivation to push yourself. The only way a quiet person can make it in the show business of Erdnase day was to have an agent pushing for you... The last thing that comes to mind is that some people do not think that Erdnase was a magician because there is no promo... The book itself is promo and sets Erdnase as an expert in a new field of magic at the time. There are only a handful of magicians that had promo that has survived to this day in the 1900's. And they were mostly full evening show Illusionists. Or had students that remembered them... A quiet unassuming gentleman... would have had a hard time selling himself even if they are an expert... Because to sell an act in show business you have to get into the publics face with the advertising... Thanks for posting Tommy I have enjoyed this talk over the Café very much...
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
It is a pleasure and an education for me Glen.
I am sorry to say I cannot, for the life of me, find this thing about where the book was first seen advertised. From memory it said the book was first advertised in some magic mag and then the advert was seen in a newspaper of the time but it was found that the guy selling through the newspaper was not Erdnase but a guy who had purchased unsold stock from a magic store. How true these facts are I do not know but the guy who wrote the item seemed to have gone into the matter in depth. The main thrust of the item was to point out the inconsistencies in the theory of it being Milton Franklin Andrews. He to was of the opinion that he was a magician. Did not the gambling supply houses of the time, the ones who sold Hold Outs etc, sell by mail order. I take your point about the time it takes to write a book. Consider the possibility that Erdnase wrote the book over his lifetime in small sections with the intention of publishing it when he quit cheating. Off hand, I have noted that Erdnase never uses the word "cheat". He likens himself to a stock broker manipulating the market. it would be interesting to hear the view of a forensic psychiatrist, what do you call them, a profiler. P.S. I am going to have the temerity to email a professor of criminal psychology at one of England’s top seats of learning and ask him to read The Expert at the Card Table and give us a free opinion of the authors nature. I might even offer to go there and give the students a demo of card cheating in return.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
That would be an interesting read Tommy...
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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