Hi

Picked up snapback move from Al's DVD Al Schneider technique. It seems to me quite similar to the retention pass which I've seen elsewhere including Eric Jones metal series.

Now both look good and Al's usage of snapback is beautiful in a routine. But it seems like the retention pass is"better" because you end up with coin in finger palm. What am I missing?

I guess what I'm asking is why would I use snapback instead of retention pass?

Al's snap back vanish IS a retention technique, used either as a put or take. Much of my own technique is rooted in this move. Don't get caught up in tbe retention pass hype that pervades these threads. Any vanish is good providwd that you do it well. Don't look fkr the Holey Grail. Just do wbatever vanish fits your style best.

? huh? confusing a sleight with an optical effect there.

Al's technique leaves you about ready to get into EG. David Roth's update on the Vernon vanish leaves you in fingertip rest. Michael Rubenstein has a sleight where you start by really placing the coin on your other hand. Mickey Silver has a sleight that takes the coin into a fingerpalm. There are other sleights which leave the coin in other positions - all of which can get a retention of vision effect - including the Chapender Vanish (seek the Kaps film) and leTourniquet (French Drop)

Simpler question: do you want the audience watching your hands so closely that they will appreciate a retention of vision effect during a sleight? They might take interest and be watching during a less deceptive (or "Illusive") moment later on.

Zuuuttt, (feel like I'm stuttering when I type your username!) Al's snapback vanish is perfectly fine for performing for the audiences that you will most likely be doing. Most of the threads here about retention moves are magicians performing for other magicians. A lot of times so much attention is placed on trying to get a good retention that you draw spectators' eyes right to the place where you really don’t want them looking at! Stick with the simpler moves and make 'em perfect; you will fool your specs much easier that way.

Jim

Hi Zuuuttt
Ditto on all that was said above: snapback IS a retention technique by Al.
As a newcomer to coin magic, I'd encourage you to learn Roth's retention vanish where the coin goes to fingertip rest, you will find learning this to be quite a challenge at first.
Once you can get the coin to fingertip rest and you get comfortable with the proper timing and misdirection, only then, would I progress towards learning retention techniques that take the coin to more exotic locations--fingerpalm, edge grip, nowhere palm, etc.
You had mentioned that you wanted to get it into fingerpalm, this I consider to be an advanced technique that I would reserve for later on in your studies.
Just my 2 cents, I'm sure many would disagree

The Snapback Vanish looks like you take a coin and make it vanish. I'd say that's pretty cool. But I don't understand comparing one thing to another. Retention pass is good, snapback is good.

Thanks as always guys for the insightful responses. You are right I am mixing an optical effect with a sleight. So both are vanishes which have an optical retention of vision effect. As an aside what exactly constitutes a retention of vision effect? I know it when I see it I think, but wouldn't be able to define it precisely- as in why one display of a coin is and one isn't.

But to get back to my original question- given that both are vanishes, both have a retention of vision effect and both are a "pass" i.e. the coin can be fake passed from one hand to the other-why would we want a coin to ever end up in the slightly awkward position at the finish of the snapback versus the more flexible finger palm? I think Jonathan answered my question which is... if you want to go to edge grip.

Evikshin: thanks for the advice, funnily enough I find doing the retention pass currently easier than the one that DR teaches. Although I am working on it as it looks beautiful when he does it on the DVDs. The other reason I am learning the "retention pass" is that in the MIsers Dream routine taught by Eric Jones on Metal 2 you need a vanish where you pass the coin from one hand to another. And the vanish where you display the coin and close your hand over I don't think quite fits into the flow I might not have given it enough thought though and stand to be corrected.

Actually neither one is a vanish in and of itself. They are both "false transfers". If after either move you simply opened your empty hand your spectators would know exactly where the coin is. Both moves are part of a continuing set of moves that make up a "vanish".

Jim

Using the snap back technique leaves tbe coin on the fingertips, whicb allows you to transfer a coin to a heck of a lot more positions than finger palm. Look at the Encyclopedia of Coin Slejghts or any of my downloads or dvds to get a better idea of its versatility. The snap back technique as I said earlier can be used as either a put (pass) or a take (also very illusive).

Thanks Michael, I'll be looking at that on the Encyclopedia of Coin Sleights over the next couple of days. That's a big big collection!!!

Hi Michael,


I recently bought your Encylopedia, and wondered if you could direct me to where you teach Al Schneider's snapback move. I didn't see it listed. I'm particularly interested in the "toss" version of the move, which really floored me -- I watched a short demo of Schneider performing it, and no matter how times I watch it I can *see* the tossed coin supposedly flying to the other hand. Just amazing.


Thanks,


Bob

Hi
Just a word of the Snapback move.
Someplace along my growing up in magic, I developed the Snapback.
I did not like it as you end up in an odd position.
There is also a slight finger tell when the move is executed.
One of the rules I established long ago was to not shift a coin from one palm position to another.
They will detect that action.
Some attempt to hide the tell by moving the hand quickly.
Sometimes that works.
My philosophy is that when the coins palmed, it stays in that position until leaving the hand as the routine moves forward.
The move used then depends on the routine being developed.
The moves I have developed were done so while developing some effect.
That is, the effect is senior to the moves used.
The Snapback worked out well in some effects I have developed.
I have made several videos of the move to display to magicians.

Hi Al,


Thanks for these tips. Yesterday I asked you where you taught the "toss" version of your Snapback move -- must have been a different thread. Anyway, I watched a clip of you performing that version and my eye was fooled every time -- I actually *saw* the coin fly from one hand to the other. So... I'd appreciate hearing where you teach this and in which effects you feel the move works well.


Thanks again,


Bob

Al, You can ignore the above. You answered my question in a different thread.