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Anatole Inner circle 1912 Posts |
Who is generally regarded as the creator of the standard cut-and-restored rope trick as performed by Mac King at the 0:08 spot of this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmI9uwYzH9o U.F. Grant would be my guess but maybe someone reading this message can confirm or correct my guess and perhaps cite a source. ----- Amado "Sonny" Narvaez
----- Sonny Narvaez
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Edward Victor. I'll return with some information, tomorrow.
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Well, it's not quite tomorrow, it's just a bit later, today.
So! I'll try to give you a bit of "history". I believe that the first "in print" method for the Cut & Restored Rope, was in Scot's "Discovery of Witchcraft". It involved a bit of sleight of hand, which "worked", but, I never cared for it. (Maybe the method in Scot's, would play to the "rubes" in Scot's time, but this was 500 years later!) When I was a teenager, it seemed that almost every magician that I saw, who did the "C&R", was using the method that had been developed by Victor. Most of the magicians, that I saw, held the two ends in one hand, and, grasping the bight at the bottom (NOI A LOOP!) brought it upwards, and, in doing that, they executed a "flip move" so that a new bight was formed, and, this new bight was cut. They were "doing a move", while the spectator(s) eyes were "burning" the place where the move was "happening". (They had been stressing that the two ends must be "even", and so, the spectator's attention was riveted to the two ends, and the immediate area where the "flip move" had to be done. Many of the magicians that I had seen doing the C&R. would "speed up" in doing the flip move, hoping that the spectator wouldn't notice! I think that polite spectators would notice the sudden change in tempo, but, would, perhaps out of courtesy, not mention it. (Some, perhaps many, would think "he did something", but, wouldn't say anything. This bothered me, but, I was about 14, and didn't have the age and experience to raise any concern. Jean Hugard, BTW, credited this "flip move" to MIHLON CLAYTON, in the August 1945 issue of "HUGARD'S MONTHLY" (page 140). Abbott's "ENCYCLOPEDIA OF ROPE TRICKS" credited the move to "Doc" ERVIN". I had been calling it, the Edward Victor "method". (I STILL DO!) In the August '45, "HUGARD'S MONTHLY", Hugard printed New York magician LEON MAGUIRE'S presentation of the "CLAYTON" "flip move". MAGUIRE "changed the moment" in doing the necessary "flip move". WOW!!! Unfortunately, the circulation of "HMM" ("Hugard's Magic Monthly" was relatively small, and MAGUIRE'S clever "changing the moment" was not noticed by very many magicians. They continued doing the "awkward" basic move. When I wrote my book, I further adapted the "VICTOR, ERVIN, MAGUIRE" move, to make it even more "natural". I even printed the "Dr. Daley Knot", and included the "CONVINCER COUNT", which I had found in an old '30s magic magazine. BTW, that count got me a standing ovation from Frances Marshall's "Hard Core" lecture audience. at Magic Inc. in '95. (That "SO" convinced me that I had "found something good"!) So,Sonny, I hope that this has helped!
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
I wrote the above EARLY in the AM, and, forgot to mention that Jack Chanin, and I had had a "session" in the green room at an MAES convention, in Norfolk, VA in 1954. We spent an hour or more, discussing the CUT & RESTORED ROPE. Jack passed along some very "good stuff" regarding the C&R rope, that I've used ever since. As far as I know, his ideas on C&R, had not seen print until I published them in my book ("DICK OSLUND -- ROAD SCHOLAR").
Jack had a great idea on a "delayed steal for the feke knot which makes the "woofle dust" obsolete, and, his "display" of the restored rope is much more "graceful", providing an applause cue.
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
In my discussions with Ian Garrison (MagicIan) about various C&R methods he explained his thinking about his "Drop end" approach,
including that no layman would hold a rope that way (Flip method) and that the outside end was no longer necessary. He preferred having the drop appear accidental while reaching for the scissors, as if holding that end had never been important at all. I asked if he had created that variation. He replied, "I published it first that is viewed by many that I created it." The he added, "No one should take credit for the popular move because it is so flawed." I had created a routine that used four different C&R methods that I had not created. He contacted me to offer an improvement and get permission to use one of my ideas. My selection of method was directed by routine flow and not any personal preference. I later demonstrated why I prefer using a knife instead of scissors. He offered, "That does allow both ends to be dropped and even justifies having a loop in the hand." Then he asked if I had created those moves. I relied, "I figure a knife was used long before scissors were invented. The creator was some guy by accident about 30,000 years ago." My point is that concerns over who originated a move, or even who published it, has little to do with its practicality fro a given routine. Because of our discussions I later did create a new method called RemCut and published it. Ian liked it and said he had some suggestions, Then he passed away from us and I never learned of his valuable improvements.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Dick send me a package trick with a completely different method that is very practical in some settings.
How many such ideas have never seen the light of day? It is sad that so many keep using the same old tired methods in a field of creative thought.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
I wonder why Anatole has not "returned" to say anything. Hmmmm Perhaps he "looked in", but, just didn't comment.
Ken (Funsway)....You wrote senD you, did you mean senT?
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Dariel Fitkee wrote "The only six ways to restore a rope" (I'm guessing at the title, but that's the essence>)
I've tried several of them. My favorite is the Gen Grant "Perfect" principle, which my dear friend, Doug Henning used on his first TV special in '75. Whenever I want to "bother" some magicians, I use it. The method that I have used most, is the Edward Victor (Mihlon Clayton, Doc Ervin) method, with the Leon Maguire improvement, and myimprovement on Leon's, plus Jack Chanin's briliant refinements. They need no preparation! Warren Stephens' last lecture had a clever instant restoration, but, it needs prep. The Gen Grant/Dom Cervas "1-2-1" principle is another instant restoration, but, it needs prep. I often kept both in a corner of the prop case, for a quick opener, when one was indicated, How about those, Ken?
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John Long Inner circle New Jersey 2826 Posts |
Well as long as some are asking, and others are answering... how about MK's finish?
John
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Quote:
On Feb 19, 2018, Dick Oslund wrote: Sorry - yes, you already did send it to me. This is not a request for more, but ... my arthritic fingers can't type good, but can still do rope tricks.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Regardless of the method used to bet the cut where you want rather than where the observer thinks,
I have always been intrigued by ways to show the cut ends separate after the cut. There does not seem to be much published material on this theme. Ian used one he created and I added two more methods for our discussions. This would seem worth as much consideration as the "which loop to put where" worry. When you are seem/remembered as hold two separate pieces of rope after the cut, the length of the segments before the cut is forgotten.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Yes! At 86, I don't do the FIVE COIN STAR, anymore. =Nor do I do the COIN ROLL WITH FOUR COINS, SIMULTANEOUSLY! BUT! I can still ENTERTAIN 'EM! I have a problem with the Cascade Shuffle, now, too. I'm still using a deck that I broke in for white gloved split fan productions when I was 18! --The deck is in good shape, but, my hands "aint". So, I use my old home made electric deck, which I got from a Tommy Windsor "DOPE SHEET" when I was a teenager, and, hadn't read ERDNASE yet.
So, Ken, I have used for years, what I have called, "The "CONVINCER COUNT". As a very young teenager, I would buy "back issues" of magic magazines. "GENII" and, "SPHINX" were sold "over the counter" in magic shops, then. They were half price, when they were two months old. I bought a few (15 cents a copy!) I found a great rope move in one. In the '90s,I was lecturing for Frances Marshall's "Hard Core" lecture group in Chicago. I did it as part of a C&R rope routine. Those old timers, STOOD UP AND APPLAUDED, in the middle of the routine! I wrote up the "moves" in my book ("DICK OSLUND -- ROAD SCHOLAR")for the "CONVINCER COUNT", so, I don't plan to tip it here! --Hey! "the baby need shoes"!!!
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Quote:
On Feb 19, 2018, John Long wrote: Hey John! It's early in the AM, and my mental "apparatus" isn't quite up to speed, yet! "MK"??? Please gimme a little reminder! (Mike Kanter?? Milbourne Kristopher (!?)
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Frank Simpson Special user SW Montana 883 Posts |
Dick, I'm guessing he may mean Mac King. His finish is original and proprietary.
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Quote:
On Feb 20, 2018, Dick Oslund wrote: That may be "4" methods. I will have to check in your book. I was having so much fun reading I may have missed its importance. But, you touch on something important. Just because we can add refinements to make an effect cleaner of more "must be magic" does not mean the performance will be more entertaining to a general audience. My most entertaining rope trick has always been "long-short" milked for 20 minutes with some local dignitary involved and a huge pair of shears. I doubt many were very astonished, but many picked up rope clippings afterwards. I am shifting to trying for enjoyment rather than just entertainment -- some of the changes because of thee.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Quote:
On Feb 20, 2018, Frank Simpson wrote: Ha! I was just barely awake! How could I have forgotten Mac!!! He and another kid name Burton, I think (!!!) usta sit right in front of Gene Anderson and I, at Abbott's GTG. Is he still wearing that suit??? (!!!)heehee Mac's C&R rope routine, is HIS routine. He does use a few old standard moves, but, it's the finish that "gets 'em"! Nobody with any ethics, would even think of copying that, or tipping it, if they THINK that they know it.
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Ken, I'm happy that you had fun reading my book! Many old timers have written to say the same, which is good for my ego!
I would be happy, too, to learn if your late friend, Ian, might have read the same magazine that outlined what I call, "The Convincer Count". When those guys at Inc. stood up and clapped, I KNEW that I had found something good. It would be great to hear that someone else had read that same magazine, and, that same "suggestion"! To be sure, the addition of a move like the "Convincer" may make a C&R rope more puzzling, but not necessarily, more entertaining! --THAT, depends on the total presentation! When I was about 9 or, maybe 10, I saw a magician that I believe was Harold Sterling, present his assembly program in my school. I met him once, enroute home from my Navy enlistment, in '55. I enjoyed that afternoon immensely. From what I know of his "repertoire", I'm sure that he was the magician, when I was 9. When I helped Frances "edit" "KID STUFF FIVE", I paid particular attention to the Sterling material, and remembered that 1942 program! The "Short & Long" was, and is, a fine routine. IMO, though, it's really a "frustration" effect, and the restoration is almost a "P.S."! There's a REASON, why it has become a CLASSIC! I'm sure Harold would be happy to know that you get so much out of it!!! It'a an honor to hear that I may have had some "influence" on your thinking. Thank you for that comment.
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John Long Inner circle New Jersey 2826 Posts |
Quote:
On Feb 20, 2018, Dick Oslund wrote: Yes I was whimsically referring to Mac King's finish, it really surprised me the first time I saw it, and it does make for a nice finish (the rest seems essentially parts of fiber optics). I guess I was hoping that it was published somewhere. John
Breathtaking Magic;
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
P.S.
There was a "discussion" last week on that other "social channel"... Someone wanted to know about the term "organic". I said that "organic"(according to Webster's Dictionary) means: "relating to a bodily organ, relating to living things, relating to, or containing carbon, or its compounds". The term is being widely used by magic catalog writers, rather incorrectly. They seem to be using the term "organic", as meaning: an ungaffed prop, such as a silk, piece of rope, deck of cards, coin, etc. I use "generic", when referring to ungaffed props like silks, rope, cards, coins, etc. A prop that is made to "do" ONE trick (arm chopper, sword thru neck, produce or vanish a rabbit, dove, duck, etc.. I call "dedicated". The prop that is made to do one trick, is dedicated to THAT trick. On a circus the owner is much more willing to hire a pony that can do a whole act, than a "one trick pony". I carry my 45 minute show, in a 13" x 20" x 8" case. Most of the props are "generic". A rope can be cut & restored, stretched, made rigid, ETC. Knots tied in a rope, can be vanished, moved, etc. Rope is almost as "versatile" as a pack of cards! Some of the first tricks that I learned were with rope. --I still do them, because not only do they help me entertain, they also are very practical to use. Most rope tricks, can meet my "criteria". In the '30s and '40s, Milbourne Christopher toured all over the world with an act using only rope. I think it was Ralph Hull who wrote, "Fifteen Minutes With A Piece Of Rope". The main reason that I answered Sonny Narvaez's question was that I was so irritated with "magicians" who did such a rotten job with the standard cut & restored rope!
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David Todd Inner circle 2328 Posts |
Quote:
On Feb 20, 2018, John Long wrote: "I was whimsically referring to Mac King's finish, it really surprised me the first time I saw it, and it does make for a nice finish (the rest seems essentially parts of fiber optics). Mac's rope work predates "Fiber Optics" . Mac's is based on George Sands's "Sandsational Rope" routine. . |
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