Having played around a little with some homemade stuff, I'm starting to see why this can be so difficult. Being subtle enough to be well hidden yet still easily read is a challenge, both in terms of reading the subtle work, and in getting it applied consistently on each card.

I was at first imagining I'd use reader style letters/numbers (AH,9S etc) but that's proving to be a challenge. Is that something that is possible with the correct application? Or is that not really a viable method at all...

For now, I've co-opted the system from the Brooklyn cards for value. Much more subtle yet still readable. However, I haven't added suits.

Do those that use paper most often only mark for value and not suits? It just seems that the more information adds more risk. But I am admittedly a rank beginner, so perhaps with more practice I can put subtle enough work in that it allows both value and suit.

Https://imgur.com/a/kixBYD0

I really like this work. Even I can read these big blue marks on the red backed cards.

Plus...an added advantage...it prevents eye strain.

And you said that you need years of practice to read paper...

I stand corrected. My only excuse is, years ago this type professional work was not available.

Thanks, that's a good system. I've been working with just stripes, but I can see the advantage of spots, both in readability and ease of even application.

99% of all marking systems don't mark for suit. Some modern IR systems do, since the work can't be seen without special equipment anyway, but those are beyond the scope of most modern performance settings, though that may be changing in the near future.

Jason

Thanks, I see why.

Next question - and if anyone prefers to PM, that's fine too.

Finding the balance of strength of the work is proving to be a challenge. Even heavier work is hard to spot in brighter light, but in dim light and especially at an oblique angle, it stands out like the proverbial thumb.

Is this something that I just need more practice at, i.e. seeing lighter work so that it's even mostly invisible, even in dim light?

As a performer, I work in a variety of lighting situations, so ideally I want to be able to have the best of both worlds...

Magicians often work in lighting situations that aren't really commensurate with the effective use of juice.

A public or private gaming table often has a simple, somewhat bright light directly overhead ... which tends to make juice markings more difficult to see if you (the player) is looking at them obliquely.
When the light is oblique along with the player ... it can tend to tip off the juice markings on the back of the cards.

In general terms you go for the faintest marking that you can intuit under your anticipated lighting conditions.

The rough science behind reading juice on the back of a card is based on the fact that the most sensitive part of the eye to low light (the rods) have no color acuity, and therefore can't pick up the difference in tonality between the card back and the juice mark. The rods are used in averted vision (they're around the outside your fovea) ... attempting to subtly steal a glance at your card back without appearing to be staring directly at it invariably results in the viewer only using the poor color distinction of the rods.

BUT ... the most color sensitive part of the eye (the cones) are located in the central fovea, and require that you look directly at whatever it is you're trying to make a color judgement on (the back of your juiced card). This also results in you having to appear to "stare" at the card in order to let the cones do their work.
You've got to be aware that you require the cones of your eye to deduce the juice markings, and make the conscious effort to use that portion of your eye (without appearing to stare at the back of the card).

If you just try to read the card without being aware of the fact that your rods are crummy at determining subtle color variations, you will struggle to deduce the markings quickly and accurately.

Generally speaking, it's an acquired skill ... kind of akin to playing the piano or violin in that you have to practice-practice-practice to get really good at it.

Thanks. I've learned more in this thread than through any of the other material on juice that I've found.

So it's not just bright vs dim, it's also when the light source itself is oblique vs overhead. That does seem to be true.

So fascinating.

Out of curiosity, what kind of work are you using. White on white, juice, shade, something you picked up on the internet or perhaps you made yourself???

To properly answer questions, I would think one would have to know what type work you are referring to. General jaron does not mean too much at least to me, but I am a little slow.

Also, what are you using the work for...exposes, to perform magic or mentalism tricks...or just experimenting out of curiosity?

It would seem that for your purposes, the work does not have to be very sophisticated. The best work in the world is no good if you can't read it or effectively apply it under the conditions it is being used for.

Seeing is not the same as using.

I'm using juice that I made myself based on Mr. Bones' kind suggestions. Just 'standard' juice work, on Bee cards. I'm using the line system adapted from the Brooklyn cards which is similar to (but more intuitive than) this:

http://cardshark.us/images/readers/wax_marks.gif

My goal is to use it for mentalism performances. Basically to divine the value of a card that a participant has chosen from a distance. In conjunction with a memorized deck.

You are correct that it doesn't need to be too sophisticated, in fact - as long as it doesn't look like Peterson's Bicycle cards above, I should probably be fine.

Of course, I'd like it to be as deceptive as possible while retaining practicality. It definitely deflates the illusion if a mind reader is discovered to be using mere trickery...

@Last Laugh: Doesn't help too much as I don't really know what 'standard' juice work is, but I get the idea.

As I recall from my early days of learning magic and studying Annemann's mentalism books (which I thought were brilliant), it was more subterfuge and presentation that made the difference, just as it is in the higher levels of hustling. In fact he had a somewhat similar mental trick using a one-way deck design to divine the thought of card from a distance which eliminated the need for a marked deck. Just a thought.

Can't help too much with what you are doing but I should mention that different lighting can have an effect on the efficacy of certain types of work. In fact, hustlers often use a light meter to measure the lighting on the table they are going to be working, whether in a private or casino game setting. They then make the work up using the light reading for the situation in question.

But...oftentimes simple is better. We humans tend to complicated things too much.

Hey, you can always get some ruby-red glasses and luminous work, or better yet, use the contact lenses. Can't miss reading that work.

I guess by 'standard' I just meant it's not shade, flash, or something else. But I am new to the whole thing, so I'm just shooting off here.

You are correct that subterfuge and subtlety make all the difference with mentalism. I can wring a lot of entertainment out of a simple card revelation.

I have used both DMC and Brooklyn cards for this type of effect. I really like that the Brooklyns (which are a little bit like pre-printed flash) are visible from quite a long range, as it really makes the idea of marks seem impossible. I also use a memorized deck so that I never actually see the back of the card they are thinking of either.

One of my preferences is to be able to create (and therefore easily replace) as many of my props as possible, so juice appeals to me in that way. I didn't realize the light issue was as finicky was it is though.

I'll keep experimenting.

Is it normal that juice shows up much more clearly on camera than by eye?

Hey!

Yes, it will show more on camera. When selling juice to a client, I explain to first look at it with your cell phone camera and while moving it sideways. This will help spot the marks and practise on seeing them. Of course, the idea is to get better so you won't need the cell phone. Juice is also easier to spot from a distance. By the way, the same thing happens to Brooklyn Playing cards so you might want to be careful when a spectator takes a picture, they might find out about it.


Cheers,

Slim

Okay thanks! Just wanted to make sure I'm wasn't just grossly over applying it. So it is normally easier to see from a distance and at an angle, and on camera. I did notice that about Brooklyn cards as well. Thanks again.