Bendeck
New user
32 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 18, 2020 10:56 pm
0
Greetings everyone,
If my memory serves me well, I might have read here on the forums about performers who do not publish as often, as a result of piracy.
For those who have decided to publish their material despite the fact that it could be pirated, and those who have seen their material pirated, what measures have been taken and to what extent have such actions affected you? Are you also discouraged about publishing?
Is publishing a means of becomes known in the magic community and building connections, or is it sales driven, or perhaps pushing-the-art-forwards driven?
I personally think that purchasing anything with your hard earned money allows you to really milk the content of a book and thus get more out of it. While taking one case into consideration is not enough to come up with a theory, I know of a magician in my area who has a library of pirated material and guess what? They do not put enough practice into their craft, they struggle to come up with a show, and even an original routine I perform was awfully copied into their act with nearly the same script (but worse). My debatable hypothesis is that, with piracy, material is easily earned and thus not much work is put learning the material.
Your opinions on this matter are welcome.
Best,
Bendeck
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David Thiel
Inner circle
Western Canada...where all that oil is
4005 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 19, 2020 02:38 am
4
I've done seven books and all seven have eventually turned up in places I never sent them. I spent nearly a year on a book about body language specifically for mentalists. Within three weeks I got an email from someone who had purchased some of my other work. He told me he'd bought my body language book for two dollars. I wrote another book designed to help mentalists market mentalism -- and deal with all the unique challenges that poses. I poured everything into it -- held nothing back. Same thing...except this time it was available from some site in the Orient for a buck.
Of course it annoys me because there is not any value placed on the work -- by the pirates who sell it or the people who buy it.
But here's the thing: I don't write books solely for money. I am not sure anyone does. Think about it: the market for magic books is small. The market for mentalism books is tiny. The sector of that market that is willing to lay down money for the specific topic you are writing about is tinier still.
An author who has published much more than I have told me that that's why selling 50 copies of a mentalism book is outstanding and selling 100 constitutes a bestseller. SO let's say that, just as a figure for discussion, it takes you 500 hours to research, write, edit, layout, revise, have the book proofread...reedit. Then, of course you need to pour more time into telling people it's available, marketing it and sometimes advertising it. (You can see where 500 hours is conservative, right?)
Let's say you sell that sucker for $30. 30 X 100 = $3000. $3000 divided by 500 means that you've gotten about six dollars an hour. THAT is assuming that you have a 'bestseller' and that you haven't put more like 1,000 hours into the project. And those figures are for an eBook, where you don't need to consider publishing and shipping costs...
You see where this is going, right?
Stack 500-1,000 hours on a book up against what you get paid for ONE hour of performing and the whole proposal spins into focus.
While I can't speak for other writers, I think it's fair to say that very few of us do it for the money. It just doesn't make sense. I honestly do it because giving back to the community and those who really want to learn is the right thing to do. There simply isn't any other good reason. It's true that I get better known in the mentalism community and that my books have led me to being able to lecture at conventions -- MindVention and the PEA being the big ones. But in the final analysis (and please don't take this the wrong way)...so what? I make my living as a performer. I don't have the luxury of a paycheque to fall back on. So I need to make my time count either in dollars brought in or in helping to build up the mentalism community.
But I also agree with you, Bendeck, that someone who pays a buck for an ebook probably doesn't value the information or the writer much. Why should they? On the other hand, are the people writing books and eBooks (and I am talking about the ones who really care about the product, not the untested poorly designed cr*p some kid churns out sitting in a lawn chair in his mom's basement) going to stop because of piracy...because their work has such a low value to the pirates and the people who take it?
I won't...because money isn't my main reason for writing. I do know some who have and others who are contemplating it. Others still are looking at going to published books with the idea that they won't be able to be pirated. That will drive up the costs and -- history shows -- that printed books aren't safe either.
As I tried to explain to the guy who cheerfully alerted me to the fact that he'd bought my book from a pirate: you treat a work someone has poured hours of life into like garbage. It's not even about money. I've sent dozens of books out to people who couldn't afford to buy them. But they showed the respect of asking me.
Not sure if that answers your questions...but I hope my perspective on it may be useful.
David
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John C
Eternal Order
I THINK therefore I wrote
12941 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 19, 2020 04:54 pm
1
My PDFs are on a few various websites as well as other mentalist products I’ve seen there.
Oh well, hopefully real people will buy them from me.
J
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The Unmasked Magician
Inner circle
If only I didn't have a wife and a kid I would have MUCH more than
2644 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 20, 2020 07:20 am
0
Quote: On Jan 19, 2020, David Thiel wrote:
I've done seven books and all seven have eventually turned up in places I never sent them. I spent nearly a year on a book about body language specifically for mentalists. Within three weeks I got an email from someone who had purchased some of my other work. He told me he'd bought my body language book for two dollars. I wrote another book designed to help mentalists market mentalism -- and deal with all the unique challenges that poses. I poured everything into it -- held nothing back. Same thing...except this time it was available from some site in the Orient for a buck.
Of course it annoys me because there is not any value placed on the work -- by the pirates who sell it or the people who buy it.
But here's the thing: I don't write books solely for money. I am not sure anyone does. Think about it: the market for magic books is small. The market for mentalism books is tiny. The sector of that market that is willing to lay down money for the specific topic you are writing about is tinier still.
An author who has published much more than I have told me that that's why selling 50 copies of a mentalism book is outstanding and selling 100 constitutes a bestseller. SO let's say that, just as a figure for discussion, it takes you 500 hours to research, write, edit, layout, revise, have the book proofread...reedit. Then, of course you need to pour more time into telling people it's available, marketing it and sometimes advertising it. (You can see where 500 hours is conservative, right?)
Let's say you sell that sucker for $30. 30 X 100 = $3000. $3000 divided by 500 means that you've gotten about six dollars an hour. THAT is assuming that you have a 'bestseller' and that you haven't put more like 1,000 hours into the project. And those figures are for an eBook, where you don't need to consider publishing and shipping costs...
You see where this is going, right?
Stack 500-1,000 hours on a book up against what you get paid for ONE hour of performing and the whole proposal spins into focus.
While I can't speak for other writers, I think it's fair to say that very few of us do it for the money. It just doesn't make sense. I honestly do it because giving back to the community and those who really want to learn is the right thing to do. There simply isn't any other good reason. It's true that I get better known in the mentalism community and that my books have led me to being able to lecture at conventions -- MindVention and the PEA being the big ones. But in the final analysis (and please don't take this the wrong way)...so what? I make my living as a performer. I don't have the luxury of a paycheque to fall back on. So I need to make my time count either in dollars brought in or in helping to build up the mentalism community.
But I also agree with you, Bendeck, that someone who pays a buck for an ebook probably doesn't value the information or the writer much. Why should they? On the other hand, are the people writing books and eBooks (and I am talking about the ones who really care about the product, not the untested poorly designed cr*p some kid churns out sitting in a lawn chair in his mom's basement) going to stop because of piracy...because their work has such a low value to the pirates and the people who take it?
I won't...because money isn't my main reason for writing. I do know some who have and others who are contemplating it. Others still are looking at going to published books with the idea that they won't be able to be pirated. That will drive up the costs and -- history shows -- that printed books aren't safe either.
As I tried to explain to the guy who cheerfully alerted me to the fact that he'd bought my book from a pirate: you treat a work someone has poured hours of life into like garbage. It's not even about money. I've sent dozens of books out to people who couldn't afford to buy them. But they showed the respect of asking me.
Not sure if that answers your questions...but I hope my perspective on it may be useful.
David
Thank you for shedding light on that, David. Well spoken. I really hope technology will evolve further and help protect content better. But in the mean time your considerations are essential.
Please check regularly if you are becoming the type of magician Jerry Seinfeld jokes about. (This applies to mentalists as well.)
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David Thiel
Inner circle
Western Canada...where all that oil is
4005 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 20, 2020 03:36 pm
0
Thank you for that kind post. I appreciate it.
David
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nimrod
Special user
881 Posts
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Posted: Jan 20, 2020 05:28 pm
0
Quote: On Jan 18, 2020, David Thiel wrote:
I've done seven books and all seven have eventually turned up in places I never sent them. I spent nearly a year on a book about body language specifically for mentalists. Within three weeks I got an email from someone who had purchased some of my other work. He told me he'd bought my body language book for two dollars. I wrote another book designed to help mentalists market mentalism -- and deal with all the unique challenges that poses. I poured everything into it -- held nothing back. Same thing...except this time it was available from some site in the Orient for a buck.
Of course it annoys me because there is not any value placed on the work -- by the pirates who sell it or the people who buy it.
But here's the thing: I don't write books solely for money. I am not sure anyone does. Think about it: the market for magic books is small. The market for mentalism books is tiny. The sector of that market that is willing to lay down money for the specific topic you are writing about is tinier still.
An author who has published much more than I have told me that that's why selling 50 copies of a mentalism book is outstanding and selling 100 constitutes a bestseller. SO let's say that, just as a figure for discussion, it takes you 500 hours to research, write, edit, layout, revise, have the book proofread...reedit. Then, of course you need to pour more time into telling people it's available, marketing it and sometimes advertising it. (You can see where 500 hours is conservative, right?)
Let's say you sell that sucker for $30. 30 X 100 = $3000. $3000 divided by 500 means that you've gotten about six dollars an hour. THAT is assuming that you have a 'bestseller' and that you haven't put more like 1,000 hours into the project. And those figures are for an eBook, where you don't need to consider publishing and shipping costs...
You see where this is going, right?
Stack 500-1,000 hours on a book up against what you get paid for ONE hour of performing and the whole proposal spins into focus.
While I can't speak for other writers, I think it's fair to say that very few of us do it for the money. It just doesn't make sense. I honestly do it because giving back to the community and those who really want to learn is the right thing to do. There simply isn't any other good reason. It's true that I get better known in the mentalism community and that my books have led me to being able to lecture at conventions -- MindVention and the PEA being the big ones. But in the final analysis (and please don't take this the wrong way)...so what? I make my living as a performer. I don't have the luxury of a paycheque to fall back on. So I need to make my time count either in dollars brought in or in helping to build up the mentalism community.
But I also agree with you, Bendeck, that someone who pays a buck for an ebook probably doesn't value the information or the writer much. Why should they? On the other hand, are the people writing books and eBooks (and I am talking about the ones who really care about the product, not the untested poorly designed cr*p some kid churns out sitting in a lawn chair in his mom's basement) going to stop because of piracy...because their work has such a low value to the pirates and the people who take it?
I won't...because money isn't my main reason for writing. I do know some who have and others who are contemplating it. Others still are looking at going to published books with the idea that they won't be able to be pirated. That will drive up the costs and -- history shows -- that printed books aren't safe either.
As I tried to explain to the guy who cheerfully alerted me to the fact that he'd bought my book from a pirate: you treat a work someone has poured hours of life into like garbage. It's not even about money. I've sent dozens of books out to people who couldn't afford to buy them. But they showed the respect of asking me.
Not sure if that answers your questions...but I hope my perspective on it may be useful.
David
If you are selling only 100 you are doing something wrong. A good book should sell 300-500 easily.
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joelclyne
New user
16 Posts
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Posted: Jan 24, 2020 11:02 pm
0
Just as an aside, Id always choose to buy a printed book over a pdf version of the same title even if it costs more. If its something Im leaning from then I want to treat it like a real book, not just a digital file. As a publisher this must surely also make it harder for people to rip off as someone has to scan each page then complete the pdf as opposed to already having a perfect digital copy. PDF's are fine for gimmick trick explanations but that's all in my opinion.
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Bendeck
New user
32 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2020 08:47 am
0
Quote: On Jan 18, 2020, David Thiel wrote:
I've done seven books and all seven have eventually turned up in places I never sent them. I spent nearly a year on a book about body language specifically for mentalists. Within three weeks I got an email from someone who had purchased some of my other work. He told me he'd bought my body language book for two dollars. I wrote another book designed to help mentalists market mentalism -- and deal with all the unique challenges that poses. I poured everything into it -- held nothing back. Same thing...except this time it was available from some site in the Orient for a buck.
Of course it annoys me because there is not any value placed on the work -- by the pirates who sell it or the people who buy it.
But here's the thing: I don't write books solely for money. I am not sure anyone does. Think about it: the market for magic books is small. The market for mentalism books is tiny. The sector of that market that is willing to lay down money for the specific topic you are writing about is tinier still.
An author who has published much more than I have told me that that's why selling 50 copies of a mentalism book is outstanding and selling 100 constitutes a bestseller. SO let's say that, just as a figure for discussion, it takes you 500 hours to research, write, edit, layout, revise, have the book proofread...reedit. Then, of course you need to pour more time into telling people it's available, marketing it and sometimes advertising it. (You can see where 500 hours is conservative, right?)
Let's say you sell that sucker for $30. 30 X 100 = $3000. $3000 divided by 500 means that you've gotten about six dollars an hour. THAT is assuming that you have a 'bestseller' and that you haven't put more like 1,000 hours into the project. And those figures are for an eBook, where you don't need to consider publishing and shipping costs...
You see where this is going, right?
Stack 500-1,000 hours on a book up against what you get paid for ONE hour of performing and the whole proposal spins into focus.
While I can't speak for other writers, I think it's fair to say that very few of us do it for the money. It just doesn't make sense. I honestly do it because giving back to the community and those who really want to learn is the right thing to do. There simply isn't any other good reason. It's true that I get better known in the mentalism community and that my books have led me to being able to lecture at conventions -- MindVention and the PEA being the big ones. But in the final analysis (and please don't take this the wrong way)...so what? I make my living as a performer. I don't have the luxury of a paycheque to fall back on. So I need to make my time count either in dollars brought in or in helping to build up the mentalism community.
But I also agree with you, Bendeck, that someone who pays a buck for an ebook probably doesn't value the information or the writer much. Why should they? On the other hand, are the people writing books and eBooks (and I am talking about the ones who really care about the product, not the untested poorly designed cr*p some kid churns out sitting in a lawn chair in his mom's basement) going to stop because of piracy...because their work has such a low value to the pirates and the people who take it?
I won't...because money isn't my main reason for writing. I do know some who have and others who are contemplating it. Others still are looking at going to published books with the idea that they won't be able to be pirated. That will drive up the costs and -- history shows -- that printed books aren't safe either.
As I tried to explain to the guy who cheerfully alerted me to the fact that he'd bought my book from a pirate: you treat a work someone has poured hours of life into like garbage. It's not even about money. I've sent dozens of books out to people who couldn't afford to buy them. But they showed the respect of asking me.
Not sure if that answers your questions...but I hope my perspective on it may be useful.
David
Thank you David for the interesting information. It does indeed.
I believe that it does harm not only to the creator, but also to magic itself. I have sadly seen important parts of certain routines being performed incorrectly in paid shows by some. I think that magic as entertainment is different to singing as entertainment, in a sense where a bad singer doesn't harm singing as much as a bad magician can harm magic, especially in areas where magic is not well known.
As said in another post, let's hope this problem does have an end.
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WitchDocChris
Inner circle
York, PA
2614 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2020 02:32 pm
0
Quote: On Jan 31, 2020, Bendeck wrote:
As said in another post, let's hope this problem does have an end.
I doubt it ever will.
For one, as long as there is a retail aspect to the magic industry, there will be people greedy enough to want a piece of it without having to put in the work.
Also, as long as there is a perceived value to the 'secrets', there will be people greedy enough to want a piece of that value without having to put the work in.
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IAIN
Eternal Order
england
18807 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2020 02:57 pm
0
I know of magicians who will happily download pirated movies yet complain about magic-piracy...
Same with music too...or using copyrighted music for their trailers and media but never paying for it...
I've asked to be banned
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John C
Eternal Order
I THINK therefore I wrote
12941 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2020 03:00 pm
0
Quote: On Jan 31, 2020, IAIN wrote:
I know of magicians who will happily download pirated movies yet complain about magic-piracy...
Same with music too...or using copyrighted music for their trailers and media but never paying for it...
Yup.
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Smoking Camel
Inner circle
UK
1039 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2020 07:31 pm
2
There’s a bit of bandit in everyone...
I no longer smoke camel cigarettes.
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IAIN
Eternal Order
england
18807 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2020 07:37 pm
1
That's what Burt Reynolds said...
I've asked to be banned
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