Mellencamp was just jealous because he didn't have a song that was used for a commercial. Trust me on this one. I grew up in the music business, and now that I am semi-retired, I make most of my income from music royalties. You will notice that he was griping about someone else's song.

John Denver (hate to drop names, but I knew him when he was Harvey John Deutschendorf) was tickled when he got the contract to let the airline use his song as a theme song.

And the tennis shoe people could not have used the piece for their commercials without first filing a notice of use with Apple records. The Beatles didn't mind at all. They were one group who were acutely aware of what being commercial was about.

The Beatles did not mind, it was all their fans that thought they should be "above" it all.

Jon, you are correct. It is the artist right to do whatever they want with their piece of art, please note I never said it wasn’t.

All I was trying to do was give an analogy as to how sad it would have been for a work of art such as the Mona Lisa to have been hung in the closet for nobody to see as opposed for millions to enjoy. To me it makes no sense.

I can think of analogies that might give you nightmares.

Someday you may create something special, and then if you want, we can discuss. Until you've made a few things, your words have no meaning beyond syntax and an attempt to use rhetoric to argue a point that has no merit.

When an artist is ready to put a piece on exhibit, they will.

I hold that we SHOULD treat the secrets and surprises in magic with more respect. It's a shame that some things are lost to us due to public and within-magic exposure.

As magicians we have lost the initial surprise of seeing magic done. What's left is novelty and very rarely something special. That is my motivation for grousing about gossip.

So can I.

I already have and I will not elaborate.

In your humble opinion, of course.

Obviously I agree with this. However, I wont be holding my breath either.

I couldn’t agree with you more.

Speak for yourself please. At age 45 I love magic even more than when I was a kid or a teenager and it continues to grow. The initial surprise has not worn off on this old codger.

Continue to endeavor to persevere.

....This is supposed to be fun! so, Have more fun and argue less.

Best Regards,

Alejandro.

You are free to suppose as you wish.

Arguing is how new things happen. Well, arguing and accidents. Either way, something has to be given up in order for something else to be explored.

Much better to put things on the table and seek new perspectives than to simply wait for the world to change things for you, or expect others to give you new things.

IMHO

Regarding keeping your material secret -- I'm not as trusting as Jonathan. There are routines I have worked on that I have never performed for magicians, because they are too easy to knock off. Elsewhere I have told of things that happened to me because of other magicians stealing my act.

But I have shared other items quite freely. I have given away as many of my Hocus Pocus Junior research manuscripts as I have sold. And I can't even begin to tell you how many copies of my ungaffed Scotch and Soda routine I have given to people on this forum.

I am also actively involved in a mentoring program for magicians.

But I believe that magical knowledge should be distributed on a need to know basis only.

Folks, look at how "Kehei Kid" and I were able to find agreement about some matters and be respectful about each other's opinions and position. That's the good part of arguments.

I take the position that coveting another's works is ugly. Kehei says he agrees. We move on. To that end I prefer not to see gossip about unpublished works, and if they are active performer's, I prefer not to know what their stuff looks like so I can be surprise.

Try this one on for size: Ask better questions and you may get better answers.

The stuff I keep secret is material of my own that I am not ready let go of and see it in print, and material that was given to me by others who have not want the ideas, methods, presentation... in print or open for gossip. Fully 99% of anything you want to ask has answers that are in print. It gets sticky when discussing material that other magicians are performing. When you see a fellow magician do a trick, AND YOU REALLY FEEL INSPIRED TO BRING THAT TO YOUR AUDIENCES, you can ask THEM about it. Try starting with: "I really liked that, is it something of yours?"

Let me offer you a recent example of a situation about secrets. I was at a convention and saw Bob Sheets close his act with a fun item involving a stack of blocks. Nobody I was with would ask him directly about it. I asked him and he told me its a dealer item. From there, all I wanted to know is if the mechanics would scale down for closeup use. The other guys just wanted to know what fooled them. Bob told us the thing cost a few hundred dollars. Not a bad investment for an item, though for me, way too expensive as I'd need to get a miniature made the way I want it. Tough call, though I may ask him for the inventor's name so I can follow up directly. The other guys have probably moved on to the next thing that puzzled them. Let's call a truce on this stuff. Don't call me Gallant, and I won't call you Goofus. Okay?

Bill and I got into a debate about a certain magic item that I felt was overpriced, which OBTW I still feel that they would have been better served to have done it differently.

About a month or so later and after some contemplation and research I finally realized I was WRONG and Bill was RIGHT. Trust me on this one Alejandro, he is only trying to help. Believe me when I tell you this guy and Jonathan Townsend really know there stuff. And please keep in mind expressing yourself can get lost in the written word.

As a side note I felt Bill Hallahan’s first response to your questions was quite excellent, you may want to consider reading (and contemplating) it again.
:lol:

Hey, this whole thread is terrific!

You guys have no idea how enjoyable it is to see others being flamed, instead of me for a change!

That's okay, Peter! We take our targets of opportunity whereever we find them.

I am glad you guys can "fight", make fun of yourselves and still be friends. Just an observation. I find that it seems to be easier for people from certain countries and backgrounds to separate an opinion from the person.
For others in certain cultures (like mine) the tendency is that if somone disagrees with an opinion, he cannot separate it from the person. Interestingly it is not solely an ego thing but also seems to be a cultutral thing related to self esteem.

I must say that for me it is hard to accept getting "flamed" - takes a lot of getting used to

Personally when things get heated (and of course that means interesting and often good food for though)I tend to just lurk. My knowledge of magic is pretty elementary so for me, if anyone wants to teach I lean very heavily on wanting to learn

Our culture says you can do horrible things and still be a hero. Likewise we expect our politicians to be dirty, yet maintain a clean public image. That is balanced against our free press and a court system that permits anyone to file suit for almost anything.

You've probably noticed I get grouchy about UNPUBLISHED stuff being taken into print by others, and about citations as opposed to "explanations". Both issues ultimately devolve down to the right of the inventor to derive monetary value from the intellectual property. Ayn Rand fan here I guess.

As to stuff in print, you've probably noticed how eager folks are to point you to sources in print and primary sources where available. Lots of stuff in old books.

Not to worry, most here have a love of magic that is greater than their ego issues.

This is indeed an interesting topic, with a lot of food for thought. If I am interpreting the original post correctly, the question was, “Why are some people reluctant to share magic secrets?” I don’t think there is any one reason for this, but rather several possible explanations, some that I consider to be valid, some less so. I’ll try to cover what I think are some of these reasons below.

*********************************************

VALID REASONS

Protecting proprietary information

If a magician has developed an effect for use in his own act, and has not tipped the secret by publishing it, then it only makes sense to respect the inventor’s right to keep his own material private. As other people have pointed out, it’s up to the creator of an effect to decide when or if he wants to reveal a particular method, and even if we know how something is done, it’s not our right to share that information if the magician wants it kept secret. This is no different than any other field where someone makes a living from a proprietary methodology (for example, in the field of photography, this might include a combination of film speed, f-stop settings, and exposure times that a particular photographer uses to achieve a signature effect; such a person may not want to expose exactly how a particular photographic effect is achieved if he makes his living through it).

Supporting the creators of magic

In many cases, a particular trick or effect is easily available for purchase from its creator, and exposing the secret or methodology is in effect depriving that person of a sale. In such cases, most of us would rather direct someone towards the original source if by doing so we can help support the person who created it. This is not always an easy call to make, as there are effects being sold under different names or as knock-offs that don’t benefit the original creator in any way, which is why most of us try to educate ourselves as much as possible about the history and background of effects (I once saw a post chastising someone about revealing some aspects of Triumph, supposedly because doing so was in effect ripping off Penguin Magic!).

*********************************************

There are also other reasons for not wanting to reveal information about magic that I don’t consider to be valid. Of course, some may disagree, but this is what I think:

*********************************************

NONVALID REASONS

The attitude that any form of sharing is piracy

This issue has been discussed ad nauseum on many different threads here, but the basic attitude boils down to the belief that any and all instances of magical knowledge need to be bought and paid for, no exceptions, and that any form of sharing is automatically tantamount to piracy. For me, this is reducing what I consider to be an art form to nothing more than commerce. Yes, there is a commercial and business aspect to magic that we need to be aware of, but I think there is far more to it than the bottom line being about making a buck.

Selfishness and resentment

I have seen many cases of people responding to genuine requests for information with an answer that is essentially, “Hey, I paid to learn that, why should I give it you for free?” Again, this is an attitude that I disagree with; any art grows with the sharing of knowledge, and selfishness is not a value that I respect. Resentment is another common response: “I had to walk 15 miles through the snow to learn how to do a double lift; why should it be any easier for you?” These are the same people who bemoan the easy availability of learning tools such as videos and DVDs, and who complain that life is easier for today’s new magicians than in the past. Of course it is; progress is about making information more available, not less.

*********************************************

Now, having said that, I do believe that many people refuse to share information based on a wariness as to the motivations of the person making the request. For them (and me), the whole issue boils down to maintaining respect for magic as an art, and far too many new magicians demonstrate a complete lack of that respect. For example, if a newcomer posts something like, “Can someone explain to me how to do Jay Sankey’s Paperclipped?”, he shouldn’t be surprised when people are less than forthcoming with information, since he hasn’t demonstrated even the most rudimentary sense of what is appropriate or shown that he has even the slightest bit of dedication or commitment to the art.

I currently make my living as a writer, but I used to work as a professional musician, and often took guitar students to help supplement my income. Many of them were conscientious and dedicated students with a real love for music, but far too many of them felt that learning boring stuff like chords and scales was a waste of time. They would literally walk in and say, “Can you teach me how to play like Stevie Ray Vaughan?” When I tried to explain to them that developing a particular musical style requires years of dedication to the instrument, and listening to and absorbing as much music as possible, they would basically tune out. If I tried to explain that to understand SRV, it was necessary to listen to the same people he did, like Albert King, Hendrix, T-Bone Walker, etc., and in turn to listen to the people that they listened to, going back as far as Robert Johnson, they would simply shrug and say that that was boring, and why couldn’t I just show them how to play that really cool lick at the end of ‘Crossfire?” Because they had no real commitment to what they were doing, they had no interest in learning the fundamentals on which to build their knowledge of their instrument. Their attitude was basically, “Instant gratification takes too long,” and not surprisingly, they didn’t stay with the instrument very long.

There is a saying, “When the student is ready to learn, the teacher will appear.” This has proven to be true for me more times than I can count, especially here at the Magic Café. Many, many people have been extremely generous in sharing what they know with me, and in turn I have tried to be respectful and grateful for the help that I have received. I think that the way that people ask for information has a huge impact on the kind of response they are likely to get. I think we need to be brutally honest about our own motivations, and ask ourselves. “Why am I asking this question?” Am I merely trying to satisfy my idle curiousity? Am I trying to get for free what I should rightfully be buying from the creator? Am I genuinely trying to increase my knowledge and understanding of the art? The answer to these questions may also be the answer to why we receive the responses that we do.

I tried to forget about it, really I did...but I kept imagining a couple of blokes turning in their graves. So.......




The Beatles were a very commerical band, but not that kind of commercial. It was one M. Jackson (yes, that one) who, after purchasing the publishing rights to most of the Beatles catalogue, licensed the song to Nike against the wishes of Paul McCartney.

As Paul McCartney said when the Nike ads appeared… “the song was about revolution, not bloody tennis shoes.”

Cheers,
Nosher (removing top hat and wearing Beatle-fan hat)

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it was Sir Paul himself who said the following:

"Somebody said to me, ''But the Beatles were anti-materialistic.'' That's a huge myth. John and I literally used to sit down and say, ''Now, let's write a swimming pool.''"

Phaedrus,

I was not claiming that the Beatles were anti-materialistic, in fact I stated the very opposite.

Perhaps the commercial/commercial(advertisement) pun does not travel to Mexico.

Also, I don't do bubble magic.

Cheers,
Nosher

I don't distribute anyone else's secrets without their permission. I will often tell someone where to look for an item, though. I believe magic should be distributed on a "need to know" basis.

When the "What is magic?" thread started, one of the first things I asked the original poster was why he needed the information.

I don't bemoan the proliferation of DVD's, books and lectures. I do bemoan the proliferation of BAD DVD's, books and lectures by people who are re-hashing other people's material without regard to where it came from.

I don't see why anyone should want to know about methods they have no intention of performing. I certainly don't, but I suppose there are those who are just naturally curious.