Michael Baker and all: thanks for your thoughts, some of it I was able to follow but I am a thick get.
On your point of working C&B, I had worked this for five years before I took it out on the streets I now have worked C&B on the street for years and is always been improving.

My first production came straight from my pockets, but on the streets I found this to be weak. Then my routine was a Strongly influenced by Celini and his book The Royal Touch. From his book I made my first pouch and I found a massive improvement on my routine. I use to keep the pouch on at all times but I found that this was clumsy thing just gets in the way. Regardless to what you wear once it is on it will restrict you. As a street performer I like to move. Where my C&B routine came through, was after spending time with Gazzo on his "Master Class". Now my routine is strongly influced by Gazzo and has a touch of Celini and finished with my character and experience. I never Carry my C&B in my pouch they normally sit on the table. I hand them out one by one to the audience asking them to look for trap doors, 2 way mirrors so on. (Michael Armar does not do this 2 of his balls are already concealed in the cups). I then put the pouch on and produce three balls (the reason for the pouch), ball 1, ball 2, and ball 3. I first vanish all three balls and they then reappear under the cups, so I get my first clap. I then do 2,0,2 and get my second clap. I then do the elevator as taught by Celini get my third Clap. I then tell them I will lose 2 of the balls by putting them in the pouch (The reason for the pouch confirmed) the balls reappear under the cups by this time I now get my forth clap and my audience is in awe. I have set them up for the kill as taught by Gazzo. A few more slights and some fun with my hat. I now produce my fruit store,where I get gasps claping and chearing. Please tell me, what do you do?

Learning from the Masters I found there routines to be one of the best in the world.
Some people can pull it of coupled with there Character and Experience and for others it is just not for them. I do strongly suggest to all if you have not already, go to Gazzo work shop if he does one, he is great guy.
A busker will measure his success on how fat his hat is, mine is getting fatter, and if you don’t busk FOR A LIVEING all at least part you will find these thoughts hard to follow.
Mario
P.S
If you put Michael Armmar next to Gazzo and they did there C&B routines which one will the punters remember in five years time?
Mario
If you put Michael Armmar next to Gazzo and they did there C&B routines what do you get?
...Piles and a hernia...
Mario

Well, there is a reason...and as you well know, the reason is *entertainment*, and in this case mostly the *patter*!

That's the most important thing!!

Forget the *technique*..

BUT, to use the advice from a guy, who also never really in the true sense was a *busker* - also he worked as a such in his earlier years in magic -, his mind worked like a such one, and he even acted/performed like one..

KEN BROOKE!!

Have a lock at Pete's site at Stevens, re what Ken mentioned!
It's not the size or the no. of loads that counts, it's the diff. in shape..TBH, I would prefer LARGE loads too, but I can't argue re what Ken mentioned..
Have a look yourself at:
http://www.stevensmagic.com/gemini/Pete%......lace.htm
Rgs.
Werner
PS. I did know KB personally and everything Pete says is true..he was one hell of a guy !
*size doesn't matter*..tell that to your wife/girlfriend

When I worked at Renaissance Festivals, I always wore a pair of pouches. These were considerably smaller than the big Gazzo pouch. They were necessary because there were no other pockets for me to work from. And in Renaissance Festival contexts, they are perfectly natural. However, for modern use, they are quite unusual.

The gibeciere, as we have come to know and love it, is actually more than just a poacher's pouch. Various kinds of workmen have used similar pouches for years -- carpenters, gardeners, bartenders, etc. And they don't take them off and put them on at various times while they are working. In some cases, they are parts of aprons. In others, they are tool holders. If you are going to wear any kind of a pouch, it needs to have a logical context, and it can't look like you just put it on so you can conveniently grab a load of oranges.

If you can come up with a logical substitute or reason, then that's great.

Otherwise, it makes sense to me to make the pouch part of your costume and to use something such as a handkerchief, a towel or a cup bag to conceal the loads, whatever they may be, until they are needed.

Good point, Bill.

I keep my pouch on all the time. I use it to ditch a deck of cards, hold an egg bag, rope, silks, etc. It is an extension of my body.

There is also the idea that an audience has some amount of implied understanding about where the loads come from. It seems that they accept the pouch in lieu of being entertained. Better still, they seem to want to be fooled.

Anybody know about this concept?

Well stated.

You very much describe my current thinking on this issue in your last few lines. The other day I think that the audience was very savy to the fact, after the fact, that the loads came from the pouch. I do not think that they would have been anymore fooled had I been wearing the pouch for the whole time.

But it is my belief that they were fooled and enjoyed it from the aspect of, "you got me when I wasn't looking." Though no one said this, I somewhat read it in their faces as they came to talk with me after the effect.

I have an old tape of Harry Anderson doing a formal C&B routine on TV.He starts the routine by matter-of factly putting on his gab.

To Michael Baker.

I have seen Gazzo do his show at this point at least 100 times. NO ONE ever suspects the loads come from the pouch. They look under the table and they scratch their heads. It is not that he loads from a pouch it is HOW he loads from the pouch.

In his routine there is only one time his hand goes to the pouch without reason and that time is covered.

The pouch plays a giant part of the entire routine. It is NOT something he pulls loads from it is an integral part of the routine. Things vanish into it from the audience perspective not come out of it.

It is psychological advantage that is built into the routine.

I love how everybody says, "Oh I saw Gazzo and he loaded from the pouch it was SO obvious."

Yeah, it was obvious to you because you have been reading and hearing about how he loads for a few years now.

If you want to know if Gazzo's routine can fool the pants off of magicians purchase the international magic competition tape from 1989. Gazzo won the close up contest against some pretty stiff competition.

As you are watching the tape pay particular attention to the audible gasps from a room full of magicians when that melon makes its appearance.

They are floored! And we are not talking about a room full of weekend warriors here.

Gazzo puts the pouch on just before the trick and it is part of the trick, not just a method of transport for oranges and a melon.

I wish magicians would take a closer look, no scratch that, A REALLY CLOSE LOOK look at the construction of a particular piece of magic before they decide to dump all over it because it doesn't make sense to them.

The point is it doesn't matter when you put on the pouch what matters is why you put it on and how you are going to use it. WHY and HOW are two things that make the difference between good magic and great magic.

Best,

Dan-

I love you Danny.
Mario

I agree completely.

In defense of this stand, and without rehashing old opinions, let me try to give this a new slant. Suppose, the pouch were worn from the beginning of the act, used for some logical, defined purpose (holding certain show props before and possibly, after use), and perhaps (if necessary) removed to facilitate mobility for a routine in which it may not be convenient to wear it, before being put back on to continue the act, ultimately (or at some future point), making it usable for the C&B loads.

The final part of Bill Palmer's statement intrigues me. Bill, am I understanding you to be suggesting that the loads be concealed elsewhere and transferred to the pouch at some point? If so, this offers up the possibility of having many items taken visibly from the pouch, rendering it likely incapable of holding any more. Then, the big loads are later secretly "loaded" in the pouch (it becoming a transfer station rather than the one and only place of concealment). Then when the loads come from the cups, the pouch is an unlikely suspect because of assumptions made about its capacity.

In a relatively similar vein, regarding Gazzo (whom I will admit never having met, nor seen live): the sheer volume of his final loads seem to exceed the capacity of the pouch he wears. This is a very strong point in his favor. I am not the least bit surprised to hear that spectators are looking under his table, etc., as the truth simply doesn't seem possible.

This is a very important point. When huge objects are produced from containers that seemingly couldn't hold them, one of the audience's first inclinations is to suspect the objects are collapsible (many times, I've had people grab baseballs and wine bottles to check). Once that theory is dispelled, some go on the hunt for the most likely hiding place. If the cup and ball loads seems to exceed the pouch's capability of holding it, then the pouch has truly served its ultimate purpose.

To make a comparison, I currently produce a 3 foot tall giant wrist watch, seemingly from a small paper lunch bag. The place of concealment is such that if the trick were forced to stand alone, the method would become transparent. Instead, I do several things to remove suspicion from this place both as the act progresses, and in the process of actually doing the trick.

To me, the best place to hide a load is where the audience, if told the truth, would probably argue with you. This can be true whether by physical design or by the unlikelyhood that the magician was able to make use of it.

To have the audience believe the magician never went near his pouch can be quite strong. Obviously, this can be achieved by well-covering misdirection for covert dipping, or more commonly, by having ulterior motives at the time a blatant use is defined.

But this still needs to be part of the bigger picture.

The ability to entertain an audience, while essential to presenting a "great" magic act, has more to do with an audience's willingness to overlook, than its likelyhood of being deceived. This gray area seems to have widened over the years.

I personally don't look at magic any more as whether or not it fools me, or whether or not I saw loads going under cups, or under salt shakers, or into silk scarves, or whether or not I caught any kind of flash... I used to... but not anymore. I like to be entertained, I like to laugh, and I like to be surprised, experiencing original magic. But I look at magic for the elements that strike a chord in the audience's mind, and hopefully to find what makes it... magic. Over forty years studying this art and over twenty years doing it full time, mostly in the trenches, makes me think I am somewhat qualified to analyze. My goal is never to "dump" on anyone. I'm too busy dumping on myself. I will, however, continue to ask, in regard to most all magic, "Can this be better?"

Michael Baker asks:
"Can this be better?"

For Gazzo, the answer is no. In 25 years of performing this trick under the most difficult circumstances imaginable for a performer Gazzo has honed this one trick to a razors edge, for him.

For the multitudes of buskers who are growing by the second who do a version of Gazzo's trick the answer is probably a resounding yes.

What works for one will most likely not work for someone else.

I do the trick and have had to adjust certain points for me. The reasons are not just due to my persona. I am physically taller than Gazzo, my show is shorter, my hands are different, and then all of the obvious reasons due to the fact that I am not the same performer.

We all need to find out what works for us.

If putting on the pouch at the start of the act works for you and you have a reason to do so both how and why then you should do it.

However, If you put on the pouch first and throughout your act the audience does not see a clear reason for you having it on when the loads come out they will know exactly what happened.

Putting the pouch on too early can be even more telling than putting it on just before doing the cups.

I think Bill's point about sneaking the loads in later is a valid one if you consider what must come out of the pouch during the show must leave the audience with the impression that the pouch is empty at the start of the cups routine.

If you are wearing a pouch and through out the show you pull out things like silks and rope that have been sitting on top of something in the pouch the audience will subconsciously know that and be able to back track the loads with chilling accuracy to the pouch. Not only have I seen it happen to others, it happened to me when I was still working out the finer points of the trick.

I now put the pouch on just before I do the trick and no one is the wiser. I of course give good reason for this. It is all about how and why. A good magician is not fooling his audience he is performing magic. If your intention is to fool them you will fail miserably. You will spend your time on wondering, "How can I slip this past them?" That is not the point of what we do.

What we should be thinking is, if this were really magic how would it look and why would I be doing this?

Because of the nature of my stage persona I can not take credit for the magic that is happening. I often act as baffled as my audience about what is occurring. This allows THEM to give me the credit for being magical which I humbly accept.

I have found that this approach is what works for me. I tune the how and why of my act to this end.

For me, putting on the pouch before the trick starts works very well. For someone else it might not. It is about how and why not when and where.

Best,

Dan-

Oh, And just one more thing. James mentions putting a towel on top of the loads. I think that is a great idea.

At the start of the trick the performer should pick up the bag put it on, pull out the cups, wand, and then mime reaching way down to the bottom of the bag to pull out the towel to wipe his hands. You will have effectively shown the bag to be empty.

Don't make a big deal of it, as a matter of fact all of the unloading of props should be done with a stream of conversation directed to the audience. Lots of smiling and eye contact. They will be looking at your face but peripherally they will know that you had to reach deep to get that towel.

I think that would be a strong sell. On the other hand why run if you are not being chased?

Because if you just pull the towel off the top and are looking in the bag as you do it that audience is going to be asking themselves, "What else does he have in there?" They will know you pulled it off the top of something and you will have just blown the trick.

How and why.

For a real deep understanding of how and why check out Billy McComb's stuff. Even his little booklets on sponge balls and napkin tearing have HUGE tips about the professional performance of magic. A lot of guys will give you their version of how in a trick but very few go into the whys. If you do not know why the proper how will make very little sense and be learned incorrectly.

This is why most magicians can't vanish a silk with a thumbtip properly. Which for the record is one of the most magical tricks on the planet when done properly.

Man, I am just full of strong opinions this morning. I'm getting sick of hearing me. I think I'll go get some coffee.

Best,

Dan-

Jim Wilder:

It sounds like you may have "Magicians' Guilt." As mentioned by others in the above posts, just wear the pouch for the entire routine and use it, like a regular pouch, by pulling your magic props out of it when needed and placing them back in when you're finished with them. Put it into your mind that the main purpose of the pouch is to carry your props. Of course you also have the "extra benefit" of ditching items with it by using the pouch as a topit or servante.

Well Ive read and (hopefully digested) some great opinions, and as one who goes out and makes his living from doing a street show(just back from Covent Garden) I can tell yo I put the pouch on when I am about to entertain with the cups.
In performing this routine, say on your 'own' pitch, with no rotation, I have found myself reloading the pouch whilst another crowd forms and they see me put these oranges and melon inside a leather bag...when they see the end of the show and see all this fruit back on the table they are floored.And they ask where they come from...either they are being polite (hmmnnn) or have absolutely no clue.I think they don't care as they are laughing and enjoying the 'show'.
And yes, we should all look to improve our magic AND performance...but as is just now...this routine kills...
Just my tuppence worth
Vernon
aka
James James

I personally wear mine all the time.

I don't have a huge melon in it though and I keep most of my other parts of show in it.

It also seems to fit my style and "look".

Having worked with James James a good few times (how was this weekend by the way? - what great weather! ) I can only second what he says above. Like so many things it's about finding what works best for you.

Kindest Regards

Dominick

I'm a relatively new busker, working with Frank Starsinic's beautiful new Busker's Pouch. I put mine on before I start gathering the crowd.

I don't have nearly as many credentials as everyone else here, but my personal thinking is this: the pouch contains all my props, and in order to have them accessible at all times, I have it on. Also, it conditions the audience to desensitize them of my wearing it. If I put in on just before the C&B closer, they might wonder "why does he put that thing on right before the last trick?" as opposed to not thinking anything of it, because they've seen me wearing it the whole time.

But what do I know? I'm just a beginner.

Hey Dominic covent was goooood...When I started out I too wore it through out but gradually changed to putting it on just before...
Oh and I am making pouches out of cow hide with the 'hair' still on it.Or would you rather have a crocodile print...or goat...
Vernon
James James

Could one of the reasons for putting on the pouch just before the cups and balls have any thing to do with the performer not liking to carry the weight of the hat load through the whole show? I do not do the cups and balls so I have often wondered about the weight throwing the performer a little off.

Here is a link to the preview of Gazzo's upcoming cups DVD. You'll have to have realtime to watch video clip http://www.penguinmagic.com/product.php?ID=1419